IRC log of #tizen for Sunday, 2013-01-20

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GI_Jackheloo?02:34
GI_Jacks/heloo/hello02:34
rasterheloo...02:34
rasterheloo..02:34
rasterheloo.02:34
GI_Jackawesome02:34
GI_Jack /say hello world02:34
rasterheloo02:34
GI_Jackseems to be an echo o o o02:34
rasterecho02:35
rasterecho02:35
rasterecho02:35
GI_JackI was going to ask the realistic prospects of a tizen phone in the future, and approximate dates02:35
GI_Jackand if there are working image files to flash existing samsung phones, I was looking at the galaxy S relay today02:36
rasteryou'll get more echo on that02:36
GI_Jackdamn....02:37
GI_Jackis tizen going to be vaporware?02:37
rasterit exists02:38
rasterthere are even releases02:38
GI_Jackyes02:38
rasterso it, by definition, can't be vaporware02:38
GI_Jackbut what can I install it on02:38
GI_Jacka lot of smart phone OSs exist02:38
rasteryou can't install it on anything02:38
GI_Jackexactly, its vaporware02:38
rasterbecause that requires drviers'02:38
rasterand only oems can provide those02:38
rasterso YOU are SoL02:39
GI_Jacksamsung is an OEM02:39
rasterand samsung wont provide you with a port to existing android products02:39
rasternot a policy02:39
GI_Jackthey are shooting themselves in the foot02:39
* raster shrugs02:39
rasteryelling at the brick wall02:39
GI_Jackare there at least dev phones out there?02:39
rasterits not going to listen to you02:39
rasteryes02:39
rasterthey were given away at last years tizen conference02:40
GI_Jackdid they at least TRY poaching the top members of the meego/maemo community?02:40
rasterthey were ugly black dev boards in a fat plarstic box02:40
rasterbut they were phones inside02:40
rasternup02:40
GI_JackI have a nokia n900, but my dealings with nokia are done02:40
GI_Jackfuck Stephen Elop, and Fuck windows phone02:40
rastertiazen is not meego ro maemo02:40
rasterit is not related02:41
GI_Jackits GNU/Linux02:41
rastertizen is effectively slp which was a limo project inside of samsung02:41
GI_Jackon armel02:41
rasteron a technical level it comes from there02:41
GI_JackGNU/Linux is GNU/Liunx02:41
GI_Jackif something ran on maemo, the port to tizen should be trivial02:41
rasterwell you'd have to ship your own qt or gtk port too02:42
rasterui-wise its not hildon02:42
rasterso ui conventions are different02:42
rastertelephony totqlly different02:42
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GI_Jackraster, if it ships glibc, and runs on a very well known armel platform it shouldn't be too diffrent02:42
rasterin fact most things are vastly different02:43
GI_Jacksamsung is not using GTK+ or Qt?02:43
rasterno02:43
GI_JackX11?02:43
rasternative development is not supported for 3rd parties02:43
rasteronly oems02:43
rasteryou want to dev for tizen- use htmlo502:43
rastererr html502:43
GI_Jackwhat?02:43
rasterunderneath it uses x11 - yes02:43
rasterthere is no native sdk or support02:43
GI_Jackwat?02:44
GI_Jackeven android has/had an open SDK02:44
GI_Jackthats madness02:44
rasterthat means that at this stage if u develop native stuff it may or may not work or be portable or installable on any devices02:44
rasterit is "promised" for 2.002:44
rasterno information has been made available as to what it wil be etc.02:44
rasterthere is no information as to ecosystem - what02:45
raster"appstores" may exist02:45
GI_Jackthe only chance in hell samsung has is tapping into the GNU/Linux eco system and getting the expertise of GNU/Linux programmers02:45
rasterand what may or may not be allowed to be distributed etc.02:45
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rasterGI_Jack: good luck with that pov. :)02:45
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rasterie - they disagree/don't care02:46
rasterthat is your view02:46
GI_Jacksweet fuck02:46
rasterfyi - i work at samsung02:46
GI_Jackwell thanks for the heads up02:46
rasteri've been working on this os now for like over 4 years02:46
GI_Jackyour words are appreciated02:46
GI_Jackand thank you for telling it how it i02:46
rasteri have spent years saying "release ports to existing products"02:46
GI_Jackis02:46
rasterno action02:46
rasteryears saying what you say02:46
rasteri dont bother anymore02:46
rasterwhat will happen - will happen02:47
GI_Jackso why is samsung making tizen in the first place if not to pick up the ball nokia dropped02:47
rasteri have no chance to change iut because at leats asamsung all decisions are top-down02:47
GI_Jackthey are not going to go head to head with android or iOS02:47
rasterie some executive with zero connection/knowledge of oss is going ot decide al lthe technical details02:47
GI_Jackain't that always the case02:47
rasteras i mentioned02:48
rastertizen is  slp02:48
rasterslp is a continuation of limo02:48
rasterlimo is something that existed alongside and/or before maemo did02:48
rasterit has been in competition02:48
rasterinternally02:48
rasterno ball was picked up02:48
rasterits a separate ball02:48
GI_Jackyour only real competition comitted corporate hare-kare02:48
GI_Jackyour ball02:49
rasterit was renamed to tizen and put under a lf banner02:49
rasterand intel then joined in02:49
rasterintel has pushed for things to be much mroe open and to use obs and muich infra that waqs used before for meego02:49
GI_Jackintel made moblin, and partnered with nokia for meego02:49
rasteryes - i know :)02:50
GI_Jackwill we eventually see samsung intel smart phones02:50
GI_JackI know intel has been pining for that for years?02:50
rasterno idea02:50
rastermaybe02:50
rastermaybe not02:50
rastertrotally orthogonal to tizen02:50
rastertotally unrelated to intel being invovled in tizen and samsung being involved02:51
GI_Jackthe only way tizen to succeed is do something android won't02:51
GI_Jacknot entirely, you might be able to talk intel into writing the port02:51
rasteryou == preacher. me == choir  :)02:51
rasteri dont see that making an x86 phone is necessarily important one way or the other to success02:52
rasterits orthogonal02:52
GI_Jackprobably not02:52
rasterits simply another choice hardware-wise02:52
GI_JackI was just asking because of an intel partnership02:52
rasterif an intel soc happens to be better - then i dont see why it shouldnt be used02:52
rasteras i said02:52
rasterits orthogonal02:52
rastertotally unrelated02:52
rasteras long as a strong set of x86 support is in tizen02:52
rasterusing an x86 soc is a viable product choice02:53
GI_Jackthe only plus side of an x86, is you can run other OS code + closed source GNU/Liunx binaries02:53
rasterbut thats a product choice02:53
rasternot related to platform02:53
rasternot really02:53
GI_Jackand x86 would be able to run a more modern ver of flash, or google earth02:53
rasteran x86 soc will be egl/gles02:53
rasterthat instaly just made all gl game binaries useless02:53
raster:)02:53
rasterads they use "desktop gl"02:53
GI_Jackraster - if your running GNU, then you will have chrooot02:53
raster(i can go into gory detail if u want...)02:53
rasterdoesnt matter02:54
GI_Jackmagic gets done in chroots02:54
GI_Jackeven in android02:54
rasterthe GPU is only supported with gles/egl02:54
rasterits a DRIVEr issue02:54
rasteryou'd have to BUILD a desotpgl emulation library on top02:54
rasteras EGL/GLEs is a binary blob02:54
rasterjust like your n90002:54
GI_Jackand intel SOC would have intel GPU which have open source drivers02:54
rastersame on intel soc's02:54
rasterno02:54
rasterthey have sgx gpu's02:54
rasterall intel soc's for mobile havs sgx soc's02:54
rasterhave02:54
GI_Jackahh02:55
rastersee the gma500 as a good example02:55
rasterthe poulsbo02:55
rastertheir NETBOOK atoms have intel gfx02:55
rastermuch higher power drain etc.02:55
rasterwell some have intel gfx02:55
rastersome have sgx02:55
rasterie gm00 as above02:55
rastergma50002:55
rasterintel license the gpu design from imgtec02:55
GI_Jackahh02:55
rastersame way that ti licensed for omap02:56
GI_JackI have an atom netbook02:56
GI_Jackgreat hardware02:56
rasteror samsung licensed for exynos etc.02:56
rasterand as i said02:56
rasterits orthogonal02:56
GI_Jackwill tizen ship with xterminal?02:57
GI_Jackor will the phones have an unlocked bootloader?02:57
rasterat least at samsung we wont release any details of products and plans to you no via backchannels :)02:57
GI_Jack:(02:57
rastergiven current direction - no terminal02:57
GI_JackI was really excited to see GNU/Liunx on a cell phone again02:58
rasteras for bootloader - unknown02:58
rasterat least historically all bootloaders have been locked02:58
rasterand may continue to be02:58
GI_Jackraster, but easy to break02:58
GI_Jackthe galaxy series was also easy to unlock sims too02:58
rasterkeep this in mind02:58
rasterthe general mindset at samsung is02:59
raster"do whatever android/ios is doing"02:59
rastergiven any problem- copy/immitate others02:59
GI_Jackeh.....02:59
rasteritsd a safe path02:59
GI_Jackits really not02:59
rasteryou haven't worked with them for 4 years02:59
rasteri have02:59
rasterthat is the mindset02:59
GI_Jackthank you for the insight03:00
GI_JackI appreciated it03:00
rasteri have spent 4 years on they "no - try do it BETTER..."03:00
rasterand argue al the reasons/cases why03:00
rasterbut it ends up03:00
raster:this is the proceedure"03:00
rasteror "this is how we doit"03:00
raster"this imust be right because android does it"03:00
GI_Jackraster - nokia did things diffrent, with meego, the n9, with no support, no advertising, did better than the heavily promoted failure of the lumia 90003:00
raster"has it been commercialized?"03:01
GI_Jackcapitalism doesn't make kings out of imitators03:01
GI_Jackbut I think you know this03:01
rasterthe fact thatizen exists at all and has anything different in it at all is an amazing miracle on its own03:01
GI_Jackraster - given what you just said, because I AM listening, why did samsung make tizen in the first plac?03:02
rasterwell ... to be fair - samsungs profits are arguing with your point htere03:02
rasterthe fact that it is now the largest phone maker on the planet...03:02
GI_Jacksamsung makes quality android phones03:02
rasterthat is why its hard to argue your point03:02
GI_Jackthats why03:02
rasterfrankly i dont know why samsung "made tizen"it wasnt :"made"03:03
rasterit evolved out of an existing limo group03:03
rasterGI_Jack: as i mentioned already -> preach.. choir.03:03
GI_Jackit doesn't make sense from a business perspective either03:04
rastertelling me simply re-iterates points i've spent years making03:04
raster:)03:04
rasterdifference is i also have an insider perspective03:04
GI_Jacktizen is something new, if you want to try something new, you have to differentiate your product substainally from existing proven products03:04
rasterif you want to make a point, making it directly to those who make decisions might work03:04
GI_Jackif you want to do exactly the same as before, save the dev costs, and just make the same samsung android phones which are imensely popular and people still love03:05
rasterthough i doubt it03:05
rasteras its turtles... err.. politics.. all the way down.. :)03:05
GI_Jack:)03:05
raster\are you korean?03:05
GI_Jackno03:05
GI_Jackyou?03:05
rasterare you over 60?03:06
GI_JackAmerican03:06
rasterhmm03:06
rasteryour chances are slim then03:06
GI_Jackunder 3003:06
rasterslim to none03:06
raster:)03:06
GI_Jackoh dear03:06
GI_JackI feel your pain though03:06
GI_JackI don't think anyone is more prone to listen to me either03:07
GI_JackI'm just looking for a phone03:07
raster1. korean cultre is a hierarchy. age is status. if u are older - u are listend to. its very strict.03:07
raster2. not being korean means u are always outside of the tree and thus may be listened to politely for some niche technical stuff, but otherwise, not really.03:07
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rastermanaging to get into this setup is rare and unusual03:08
rasterie breaking the hierarchy. i've had fairly minimal success03:08
rasteri am focusing on my tech and will let decisions happen however they will as its the same as shouting at the wind to tell it to stop :)03:09
GI_Jackare you korean?03:09
rasterno03:09
rasterbut i live in seol03:09
rastererr seoul03:09
GI_Jacknice03:09
rasteri've lived here fullltime now for 2.5 years03:10
rasteri lived in taiwan for a year or so on and off, and 4 years in japan03:10
GI_Jackknew some people stationed in korea in the army03:10
GI_Jackahh03:10
rasteri'm just giving you the view from someone who has spent a lot of time in asia03:10
rasterstuff works differently here03:10
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GI_Jackyour words are very appreciated03:10
GI_Jackand I've been listening03:10
rasterthis irc channel has zero people who decide anyting on it03:10
rasterthe CLOSESt u have is me03:11
rastermostly because i'm pretty radical and am prepared to trample over anyone and anything to get what i want03:11
GI_Jackahh, is there at least intrest?03:11
GI_Jackfrom a community?03:11
rasteri leave corpses by the roadside on my path :)03:11
GI_Jackalright :)03:11
rasterbut reality is - i'm all out of energy03:11
rasteri know the immensity of the problem faced to makign the kind of thng u ewant there03:12
GI_JackI don't mean to be rude, but 2013 is going to be a rough year for you03:12
rasteri already know what u want03:12
rasteran open platform03:12
rastera phone u can ssh into03:12
rasteruc an do "make" and buidl whatever sw u want03:12
GI_Jackyep03:12
rasterhell if it shiped with xterm u'd be happy as a pig in mud03:12
GI_Jackyep03:12
rasteri know what u want :)03:13
rasteryou're far from being alone03:13
GI_JackI know03:13
rastermy estimates show theres a few hundred thousand peolpe just like u03:13
rasterchafing at the bit for a gnu/linux phone03:13
GI_Jackcommunity contribs make the platform better03:13
rasteras all the above03:13
GI_Jack:)03:13
rasterits not 100's of millions03:13
rasterbut its a sizable niche at a minimum03:13
GI_Jackthe type who'd ditch android and iOS for it03:13
rasterthe other thing u want is support03:14
rasterie not a windows sdk03:14
GI_Jackwe want documentation, and we support ourselves03:14
rastersomethng that runs on linux and is nicely supported so u can write your apps.. as u see fit.. on your linu box03:14
GI_Jackport existing GNU/Linux apps03:14
rasterdocs are unlikely beyond api docs03:14
rasterhw docs u'll never get03:14
rasterdont even bother03:14
GI_Jackhw docs you never get03:14
GI_Jackjust a consistant API03:14
GI_Jackand ABI thats documented03:15
rasterproblem is both intel and samsung and the telcos supporting tisne have all jumped on the "html5 is the future" bandwagon03:15
rasterand that is the core of tizen03:15
rasterhtml503:15
rasterits the message03:15
rasterso.. write your apps in html503:15
GI_Jackhtml is the future03:15
rasterthats the story for tizen03:15
GI_Jackbut html is a high level lang like python03:15
raster(and always will be)03:15
raster:)03:15
GI_Jackhtml5 is the future, because at the end of the day, we want our phone to be compatible with the rest of the internet03:16
GI_Jackthats the point03:16
rasterhtml is fine for a certain subset of apps03:16
rasterones that dont care about memory footrpint, performance etc.03:16
GI_Jackat the same token, we want to also run tried, true, establed applications meant for GP computing03:16
rasteryour todo list app doesnt much care03:16
rasteryour game enigne does03:16
GI_Jacksame thing with python03:16
GI_Jackhalf of the modern linux desktop is written in python03:16
rasterbut here's the catch03:16
rasterhtml5 is a religion03:16
GI_Jackheavy lifting in C03:17
rasteras much as python is03:17
rasteror c03:17
rasteror c++03:17
rasteror java03:17
rasterprogrammers have religions03:17
GI_JackI also want to run python and bash on my phone03:17
rasterthats reality03:17
GI_JackI am a polythiest03:17
rasterthey want to write thewir app with the lang they already know03:17
GI_JackI am also a distro polythiest03:17
GI_Jackof course03:17
rasterthey are not going ot convert religion overnight because you tell them to03:17
GI_Jackyou do your best work when you are not fumbling through cheat sheats03:17
rasterits EASIER to support their religion - their lang.. than it is to convert them to yours.03:17
GI_JackI've got nothing against html03:18
GI_Jack5 or otherwise03:18
rasteras such the base os nuts and bolts - linux... (gnu linux) alreayd have pretty much every concievable language (religion) ported to it03:18
rasterwith x11 support too03:18
GI_Jackyes03:18
GI_Jackand its awesome03:18
rasterso u dont hve to actually do the work03:18
rasterjust allow them to support themeslves03:18
rasterallow the "python community" to deal with packaging and porting. spuppport, bindings for phone specific apis and services03:19
rasterand presto03:19
GI_JackI want a phone I can use as a general purpose computer, and a phone at the same time03:19
rasterbut thats now the mentality around here03:19
rasterand tryng to change a whole mindset all the way up the stack is basically a task i dont have the bandwidth for03:19
rasteri'm out of time and energy to do it03:19
GI_Jackraster - do your terms of service prevent you from helping the community build what your company denies us?03:19
rasteri cant carry that turtle on my back anymore - i need to go back to doing what i do and see what happens03:20
GI_Jackbecause I am absolutely cool, if we are able to do things as a community that aren't supported by the company03:20
rasterthe MINDSET is to lock the phone down03:20
rasterso u technically CANT do it03:20
GI_Jackgive the hackers the ability to build what they want, and they'll do it themselves03:20
GI_Jackand even give it to you when they are done03:20
raster(without knowing exploits/backdoors)03:20
GI_Jackahh03:21
raster"security issues"03:21
raster"warranty problems"03:21
raster"teclos ask us to lock down the device"03:21
rasteretc.03:21
rasterone of your problems is telcos03:21
GI_JackI have t-mobile03:21
rasterthey very often are paranoid and insist on lock-downs03:21
rasterthat is one thing - that creates pressure to begin with03:21
GI_Jackt-mobile is the only US carrier which is cool03:21
rasterand so there is a mindset that "this is how things should be done in mobile"03:22
rasterto start with03:22
GI_Jackthey don't give a fuck what device I put my sim card into03:22
GI_Jackthe rest of the world besides the US is like that03:22
rasterso you now have specific pressure AND a general view that lock-down is right03:22
rasteru have another factor03:22
rasterphone bricking/breaking03:22
rasterfact is if there is any chance u can brick the phone03:22
GI_Jackthat is always a risk03:22
rastermaybe it not work 100$% properly anymore03:22
rasterby having "root access"03:22
rasterthen it will be denied to you03:22
rasterand technical means to make it hard/impossible will be implementend03:23
GI_JackI can only hope that someone leaves a backdoor so root access can be obtained, and the sim unlocked like earlier samsung phones, although I would never ask you to betray you emploer03:23
rasteras basically no one wants to be the guy to blame for lots of warranty issues as people send back bricked phones they bricked themselves03:23
GI_Jackraster, make a brick proof bootloader03:23
rasterthe person to decide that that is ok just had his career and job cancelled basically03:23
GI_Jacklike the n90003:23
Aranelraster: you look very pessimistic about tizen, isn't it?03:23
GI_Jackthe n900 has a brick proof bootloader03:24
GI_Jackthe phone can always be reflashed03:24
GI_Jackand nokia had instructions on how to reflash it, along with stock roms for download03:24
rasterGI_Jack: unlikely to happen - i've proposed brick-proof stuff and gotten no traction. i've specified how to make it happen. no interest.03:24
GI_Jackyou had to enter your devices serial #, but it worked03:24
rasterthe other thing stopping u from getting root acdess - is securityt03:24
rasterthere is a deep paranoia of "viruses"03:24
rasterand not wanting to allow any app any access at all03:25
rastero]r as little as possible03:25
rasterand assuming users are stupid03:25
GI_Jackmost users are stupid03:25
rasternever even allow them to say "no - i'm sure - let ot run anyway"03:25
GI_Jackyou have some basic sort of challenge, such as red pill mode, to make it idiot proof03:25
rasterso reality is the device comes totally locked down oiut of the box for mostly these reasons03:25
GI_Jackthat said the bottom of the barrel IQ wise already have iPhones03:25
rasterAranel:  i am just being realistic. trying to set expectations straight03:26
GI_Jackraster - this doesn't bode well03:26
rasteri have always been brutally honest. that's what i do.03:26
GI_Jackagain thank you for doing so03:26
rasteri would rather have you know what you are gettign into than have some misguided idea of what tizen is and will be, and then end up totally disappointed03:27
Aranelraster: I can't really get the idea behind making Tizen another completely closed OS for end-users03:27
Aranelthat wouldn't differentiate it.03:27
rasteralso reality is - you - the ccustomers - or potential customers, need to speak up03:27
rasterdont stay silent03:27
rasterand i'm not going to "appease you"03:27
rasteryou wont get what u want unless u speak up in enough numbers/volume/wallets03:28
rastermy main point here is03:28
rasteri knwo what u guys want03:28
rasterunlocked devicde where a simple "sudo" + passowrd gets u root03:29
rasteror that'd be ideal03:29
rasterwith an xterm03:29
GI_Jackraster - here is the problem I won't be speaking up with my wallet unless you make a device I want to buy03:29
rasterok - an extra hoop to "enable developer mode" in a menu03:29
rasteror add a develoepr pakage - fine03:29
rasterbut in effect what uw ant is what u got on an n90003:29
rasterGI_Jack: i know :)03:29
rasterGI_Jack: i know that full well03:29
GI_Jackif tizen is yet another android or iOS its going to tank03:30
GI_Jacklike windows phone03:30
rasterso i am on the bandwagon of "let the market decide"03:30
rasterwait for sales figures03:30
GI_Jackthere is no more room for another iOS or android on the market03:30
rasterthen see what happens03:30
raster:)03:30
GI_Jackok03:30
rasterin the meantime i go back to doing what i can do03:30
rasterand stuff i can and do decide over03:30
rasterstuff i know i can improve and make better03:31
AranelI remember once customers cast their vote with their wallets. It didn't change the fate of N9.03:31
GI_Jackif maemo/meego lasted long enough it could have crept out of the nerd basement and started chomping at the mainstream03:31
rasterstuff that doesnt involve politics03:31
rasterAranel: indeed. that is indeed  a likely possibility.03:31
rasterGI_Jack: i agree.03:31
GI_JackAranel, it goes to show that in business, politics often gets in the way of making money03:31
rasterbut it just as it was crawling out ... it was put to death.03:31
GI_Jackone jackass like Stephen Elop would rather sink a company than betray his masters at MS03:32
rastertho you could argue that jolla/sailfish just had the torch passed to them03:32
GI_Jackyeah03:32
GI_Jacklets see what they/your company does03:33
rasteri'm just trying to get the pint across that how you think and you feel and what you want03:33
rasteris not what happens at a place like samsung03:33
rasterit is full of 99% of engineers and managers who come from:03:33
raster1. android, 2. featurephones, 3. telco contracts03:33
Aranelthey look like everyone's dream OS, don't they :) But I'm not sure if Jolla could keep up in this market.03:33
rasterthey do NOT come from gnu/linux/oss03:33
rastertheir view is totoally unlike yours03:33
GI_JackI understand03:33
rasterthey also are not a western culture03:34
rastertotally different03:34
rasteri totally get you03:34
rasteri'm in your bucket03:34
GI_Jackthe only thing that puzzles me is why they decided to do this in the first place03:34
GI_Jackthere mentality is better suited to what they are doing now, android phones, and they do it well at that03:35
rasterbeats me03:35
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rasterother than momentum03:35
rasterexisting limo group03:35
GI_Jackcomparison, IBM, and the personal computer03:36
GI_Jackthe corporate culture of IBM did not lead itself to the development cycle of PCs03:36
rasterwel at least in the mobile world03:39
rasterits hard to be small and pplay in it03:39
rasterwhat i hope is that tizen might eventually evolve to something you want03:43
rasterbut expecting it to be all that out of the gate is going to be a tall order03:43
rasterif it survives long enough to evolve there - who knows03:43
GI_Jackfrom what you told me, I'm not betting on it03:44
GI_Jackpersonally, I don't see it making it to 201403:44
rasterlet's see03:45
rasterwell one could argue that the army of nerds who want a "phone with xterm and sudo" is so small thgat it'd never survive either03:48
rasterand such a phone doesnt provide enough to sell to an average joe who will skip it anyway03:48
raster:)03:48
GI_Jackno03:49
GI_Jackbut it'd take all of 30 mins to port it03:49
GI_Jackniether xterm nor sudo precludes other features everyone else wants03:50
rasterport what?03:50
GI_Jacknor do any other nerd features03:50
rasteroh xterm03:50
GI_Jackxterm and sudo03:50
rasteru may be surprised how much more work it'd take03:50
raster:)03:50
rasterwell xterm anyway03:50
GI_Jackno, just steal the n900 version03:50
rasterwill be broken badly03:50
rasteru wont be able to type03:50
rasterfor starters03:51
GI_Jackwhy not? standard X11 keyboard driver03:51
rasterunless u specifically integrate the input method syspet support03:51
rastervkbd03:51
GI_JackI thought keyboard support was handled by X1103:51
rasteru need to specifically delcare u awant a vkbd - when uw ant it and what kind03:51
rasterHARDWARE kbd is03:51
rastervkbd is handled via much more complex setups03:51
GI_Jackahh03:52
rasterinput method frameworks with extensions03:52
GI_Jackthere are X software keyboards03:52
GI_Jacklike xvkbd03:52
rasteryes03:52
rasterbut there is no way to manually bring one up03:52
GI_Jackgnome-shell has a cell phone type one03:52
rasternothing exists in the ui03:52
GI_Jackoh fuck03:52
rasterthe WM will enforce a 1 app at a time policy03:52
GI_Jackport the gnome-shell one03:52
GI_Jackor the ubuntu one03:52
rastersure - u can go overr-ide-redirect03:52
GI_Jackno multitasking?03:52
rasteragain03:52
rasterno  way to bring it up03:52
rasteru can switch apps03:53
GI_Jackoh ok03:53
GI_Jackno keyboard hooks, like android, gnome-shell03:53
GI_Jack??03:53
rasterthere is an inpute method framework03:53
rasterthere are03:54
rasterits specific03:54
GI_JackI was about to ask how you text?03:54
rasteryou'd have to do more than 30 mins or wokr to make xterm work03:54
GI_Jackand email03:54
rasterit exists03:54
rasterbut apps USE a toolkit already supporting it03:54
rasterxterm does not03:54
GI_JackI see03:54
rasterxterm uses raw xt+xlib03:54
rasterif u use a toolkit - the integration is done for u03:54
GI_JackI thought an onscreen keyboard would be handled by the VM03:55
GI_Jackerr WM03:55
rasterporting xterm is porting a tooolkitless app ...03:55
rasterand so u have to do all that integration work03:55
raster> 30 mins work03:55
raster:)03:55
GI_Jackahh03:55
rasterit is handled outside of your appp\03:55
rasterbut u have toi REQUEST the kbd03:55
rasterie say "i changed state - i have some widget focused that needsa a vkb - can i talk to the input method framework thanks"03:55
GI_Jackno the WM automaticly detects text input, and displays the keyboard03:55
rasterit handles much more than basic keystroes03:55
GI_Jackoh ok03:55
GI_JackI see03:55
rasterit handles INPUT METHODS03:56
rastersomehting americans in general dont understande03:56
rasterasian input03:56
rastercomplex input03:56
rastersure03:56
rasterxterm supports these - via xim03:56
rasterxim is really primitive03:56
rasterwe've used a much higher level scim setup03:56
rasteryes - there is an xim->scim bridge03:56
rasterbut it doesnt support the requesting of vkbd and indicatin of vkbd type (passowrd, email, numeric, blah blah blah)03:57
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rasterwm's are not invovled in text input fyi03:57
rasterwm's simply set focus03:57
rasterinput methods are one of the ways of being part of text input03:57
rasterits complex03:57
GI_JackX is involved in text input03:57
rasterx itself has 2 ways of text input03:58
raster1.03:58
rasterdumb key press/release events03:58
rasterthese are buttons basically.03:58
raster2. xim03:58
rasterxim is too primtive to do vkbds03:58
rasterso an alternate non-x11 system does the job03:58
rasterscim has been adapted03:58
rasterif u dont write in asian langs u dont know what tese things are03:58
rasterjust accept that this is needed03:59
rasterso the rest of the world can be supported03:59
raster:)03:59
rasterxterm doesnt have the code in it to indicate to scim directly whaqt vkbd type it wants03:59
rasterxterm has ZERO scim code03:59
rasterit has xim support code04:00
rasteri've read xterms src04:00
rasteri spent a holidya writing a terminal of my own04:00
rasterso i had to read it :)04:00
GI_Jackahh04:00
rasteri know what xterm code supports/does...04:00
rasterother than the fact that i write ui toolkits for x11 etc. and have done this for like... over 16 years :)04:00
seoz_yo04:01
rasterxterm is > 30 mins port04:01
rasterthat i know04:01
rasterfor sure04:01
rasterseoz_:  yo04:01
rasterxterm is more like maybe a week.. for someone who knows what they are doing04:01
rasterto do a half-decent port04:01
rasteru have to do other thigns too04:01
rasterlike handle properties/messaages telling you that your window has been covered half by a vkbd04:02
rasterand that you should adjust your window content to move it out of the way04:02
rasterthe window is NOT resized04:02
rasteri can detail a bunch of other things u're going to have to do04:02
rasteralternatively u can just "compile" a terminal that would already work without porting04:03
raster:)04:03
GI_Jackthere are OTHER terminals04:03
GI_Jackand xterm is kinda shitty04:03
rasterthere are04:03
GI_Jackthe major DEs provide far better terms04:04
rasterthose using gtk or qt will need you to also provide gtk or qt too04:04
rasteras neither gtk nor qt are on tizen at all04:04
GI_Jackkonsole/gnome-terminal/XFCE4-terminal04:04
rasterthen u have to provide the toolkit along wirth your term04:04
raster:)04:04
rasterand libvte i think too04:04
rasteretc.04:04
GI_Jackthat shouldn't be too hard, right04:04
rasterwell u then ALSO have to do the integration work04:04
rasteras above04:04
rasterinput method EXTENSIONS04:05
rasterto the toolkit04:05
rasterso vkbd works04:05
GI_Jackso something like qt4-tizen04:05
rasteru have to still handle the "adjust layout" stuff as above (for vkbd covering part of your window)04:05
rasterstill > 30 mins :)04:05
GI_Jackok, I see your point04:06
rasterfyi04:07
rasterthe terminal i did write.. works on itzen with no porting needed04:07
rasterjust "make" :)04:07
rasterand it already integrates as above04:07
GI_Jack :)04:07
rasterjust fyi04:07
rasteri did this because i wanted a terminal i can run on my phone04:08
rasterand i wanted to do minimal work to port04:08
rasterand tbh.. writing a whole new terminal is so much easier for me than porting one :)04:08
rasteri'm like that...04:08
GI_Jackso there is a terminal port04:08
GI_Jackexcellent04:08
rasterwell its not there in tizen04:08
rasterbut it'd be a trivial "compile it" effort04:08
rasterwhihc i have done so myself already04:08
GI_Jackbut it should be "available"04:09
rasterbut i use the term on my desktop mostly anyway04:09
GI_Jackin some context of the word04:09
rasterso i know it can work.. but i focus on making it a better term04:09
rasterregardless04:09
rastersure04:09
rasterbut as tizen is not "Available" in any digestible way - its a "some future thing" thing04:09
GI_Jackunderstood04:10
rasterand since its a native app - i have no idea if it will be "able to be made available04:10
rasterhow or where04:10
rasterso not a problem i care to bother with atm04:10
rasterjust make it a better term04:10
rastersince i use it all day, every day on my desktop(s)04:10
rasterand laptops04:10
rasteretc.04:10
rasterthis is what i meant by focusing on other things04:11
rasterstuff i can and do control04:11
GI_Jackother people want that term04:11
rasteralready available04:12
GI_Jackwhat do you use to compile gcc?04:12
rastercode been in svn since the start04:12
rastereven has releases04:12
rastererr04:12
rastercompile gcc?04:12
rasterwhy would i bother compiling gcc?04:13
* GI_Jack shrugs04:13
rasterwait04:13
rasteru mean run gcc ON a phone?04:13
GI_Jackcompile standard GNU apps04:13
rasterwait04:14
rasterwhat is your q?04:14
rasterwhat do i use to compile stuff in general?04:14
GI_Jackyes?04:14
rastergcc04:14
GI_Jackawesome04:14
rasterhttp://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=about/terminology04:14
GI_JackI saw that a while ago with the e17 relesae04:15
GI_JackI thought "people still use enlightenment?"04:15
rasterworks on tizen already04:15
GI_Jacknice04:15
rastertizen uses enlightenment04:15
rasterand efl04:15
GI_Jackthats all you needed to say04:15
rasterthus why its then "zero porting" :)04:15
GI_Jackso it DOES use standard software04:16
GI_Jackwhy didn't you just say so04:16
rasterthat dsoesnt mean u will be able to use efl in apps you port/write04:16
rasteri do this for my own amusement04:17
rasterYOU may be stuck with a phone that is locked down04:17
GI_Jackwhat format does tizen use for package management? .rpm, .deb???04:17
rasterand that doesnt allow installation of native apps at all04:17
rasteror the ones u can install have to go via an appstore that filters out apps linking to libs that it deepms are bad04:17
rastereg - using efl directly04:18
rasterand so your port/app is banned04:18
rasterwho knows04:18
rasterno policies are such store exist04:18
rasterjust saying that nothing has been said that will be explicitly allowed04:18
rasterthe current os uses rpm04:18
rasterbut again - it doesnt mean that YOU will ever have access to install arpms04:18
rasteror that 3rd party apps you "download" will come as rpms04:19
rasteri dont know04:19
rasterthe whole "appstore/ecosystem" thing is a totall blackbox/mystery to me and beyond "html5 will be allowed and you should package things as special tizen html5 app packages for html5 apps" there is no word04:20
rasterie there is a custom format for those apps04:20
rasterand zero word on native04:20
GI_Jackpackaging formats are flexable04:28
GI_Jackmost are just zip, xz, gzm or other compressed archives04:29
GI_Jackof course with metadata in text files04:29
rastersure04:29
rastertho they often include scripts to run too on install/uninstall04:30
GI_Jackyes04:30
rasterand what kind of metadata there is and conventions matter - and this defines your eosystem basically04:30
GI_Jackthats metadata04:30
GI_JackI maintain 4 PKGBUILDs in arch linux's AUR04:30
GI_Jackand work with them on a regular basis04:31
GI_JackI maintain around 20 or so binary packages built from AUR PKGBUILDs for my own Live OS04:31
GI_Jackinto my distros custom binary arch linux repo04:31
rasteri imagine u are one of those people who;'d like an arch based phone :)04:31
GI_Jackarch mobile04:31
GI_Jackhildon is in the repos, but I think thats the only phone style UI04:32
GI_Jackontop of xterm, I do want a slick, FAST, intiutive multi touch interface04:32
GI_Jackbecause honestly thats what I need 90% of the time04:32
GI_Jackwith single touch the n900 had a great GUI, that was user friendly, and even n00b safe04:32
GI_Jackwith a great camera04:32
GI_Jackcarl ziess04:33
GI_Jackalso had an atheros chipset for a wireless card =)04:33
rasterthe resistive ts wasnt that hot i have to say... a bit dull response-wise04:33
GI_Jackit was good for 200904:33
GI_Jackthat is it04:33
GI_Jackotherwise the hardware is dated04:33
rasterand the gl drviers were... much less than hot04:33
raster2009 had capacitive stuff all in th market already :)04:34
GI_Jacknot multi touch04:34
rasterthat is less a concern04:34
rastermore that it didnt respond well to finger pads04:35
rasterit responded04:35
rasterbut not WELL04:35
rasteri ended up using fingernails a lot04:35
GI_Jackdepends on the app04:35
rasterits still lurking on my desk here04:35
raster(n900)04:35
rasterbattery out tho04:35
rasteralso mine loved to brick-itself04:35
rasterlike literally run out of battery04:35
rasterand then never charge04:36
rasterlike beign to charge04:36
rasterboot04:36
GI_Jackyou have to coax it back to life04:36
rasterthen turn off04:36
rasterrepeat04:36
rasterfor hours/days04:36
rastereventually it magically got out of that state04:36
rasterbut by then i'd relegated it to the bit bucket04:36
GI_Jackraster - hold down u when it tries to boot04:36
rasteras it took months and pure luck04:36
GI_Jackit will go into USB mode04:36
GI_Jackfor flashing04:36
GI_Jackand not try and boot04:36
rasteri tried everything04:36
GI_Jackwith the screen off, but it will charge04:36
rasternothing worked04:36
rasteri tried that04:36
rasteramongst a dozen other things04:37
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rasterits all moot now anyway04:37
rasterthe gl drviers have some ugly bugs that wont ever get fixed04:37
rasterlike egl config init doesnt work if u ask for "at least 1 bit of rgb"04:38
rasteru have to explicitly askfor 56504:38
raster(at least 5/6/5 bits of r/g/b)04:38
rasterso i have to keep special n900 hacks in my code04:38
rasterit doesnt handle 32bpp - tho the soc and gpu handles it04:38
rastergl/drm setup will barf nicely04:39
raster:)04:39
rastergldrawarrays barfs with too many vertices :)04:39
GI_Jackwell I am going to sleep04:39
GI_Jackits been nice talking to you04:39
rasternite!04:39
raster:)04:39
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