IRC log of #tizen for Wednesday, 2012-01-18

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Marijuanoi have a quick question about nokia n9 and tizen, anyone care to help :D?02:58
Marijuanowill i be able to install Tizen updates if i buy a nokia n9 or am i stuck with dead meego forever ?03:02
rasterthe simple answer03:03
rasternokia is not involved in tizen03:03
rasternokia makes the n903:03
rasteryou'lll have to support yourself there03:03
rasterif you do  the port and integration - then fine03:03
Marijuanocool, now if im not good with techie stuff is it better if i go with adroid or mac ? or should i fuck it all and buy a n9 anyway and try to learn?03:05
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wmarone_Marijuano: N9 is supported by Mer and nemomobile, which will have some degree of support going forward03:06
rasterbut well since u are on #tizen that u are interested in something that can run it03:06
rasteror you dont much care and are just shopping for a new smartphone?03:07
Marijuanoi was shopping for a smartphone and the meego struggle got my revolutionary side all aroused. But im no good with technology so i wanted to know if i was buying something i wouldnt be able to use later. Im glad to see the community is not dead, this opening of ports and integration you speak of, is it rreally hard?03:08
rasterwell as best i  know the n9 is the "end of the line"03:09
rasterfor nokia03:09
rasteras they at least have officially said their smartphone platform is windows now03:10
rastern9 isnt really meego as it was harmattan + qt03:10
rasterso still deb based03:10
rastersure - community can and will support it03:10
rasterbut thats kind of the end of that line03:10
Marijuanoso no tizen for n903:11
rasterthe vendors invovled dont include nokia03:11
rasterso they wont go port it for you03:11
rastercommunity may03:11
rasteror may not03:11
rasterwho knows03:11
rasterport may or may not be fully functional03:11
Marijuanofuck, i dont want to sell my sould to google03:11
rasterif you get an android phone - same deal03:12
rasterjust assume u'll be stuck with the android version u get on it03:12
rastertizen wont be ported03:12
Marijuanook, my heart is broken03:12
Marijuanothanks a lot for the information raster03:12
raster(we can have an endless discission on ports etc. but in my experience unless a vendor does the effort almost all ports are partial, not full, so some things never work right)03:12
Marijuanoi hope you live a good life03:13
rasterif you wait you will probably see announcements about tizen products in the future03:13
rasterso my advice would be03:13
raster"be patient"03:13
rasterbe prepared to buy a smartphone now03:13
rasterand then buy another soon when u want tizen03:13
rasterfrom samsung's end - we arent doing tizen just to have some fun with linux and code03:14
rasterwe're doing it to make products03:14
rasterso expect to see them come from us03:14
Marijuanoso if i buy say a galaxy ace03:15
Marijuanoi can expect to see tizen there? or is it too old?03:15
rasterthat was my point above03:15
rasterdo NOT expect a port TO an existing device03:15
rasterthere is zero intention to do that03:15
rasterwe wont03:15
Marijuanoi see, point taken03:15
rasterso if u buy an ace... u'll be stuck with android03:15
rasterthus my advice to wait03:16
Marijuanothanks a lot, you really helped out03:16
Marijuanoi have to leave now, i wish you the best03:16
Marijuanosorry for being a nuisance03:16
Marijuanotake care :)03:16
rasterno problems03:16
rasterglad to help03:16
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kristianpaulThere are EVB or actually mobile devices in wich tizen will run?04:49
kristianpaulI mean plans to manufacture one or... one already manufactured?04:50
stefan_schmidtI bet Samsung is planning on shipping some :)04:52
stefan_schmidtNo idea when and if others coming along as well.04:52
stefan_schmidtIts the usual wait and see thing I fear04:53
kristianpaulah, boring.. ;)04:53
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kristianpaulwell, lets see if i got a less evil alternative than buying android phones (wich i dont plant to do)04:55
stefan_schmidtkristianpaul: :)04:55
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monstazahi guys... I see there is an SDK  download  on   but how do you run your apps?  all I see is a bunch of source code for Tizen  and no  guide on how to compile it05:05
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berndhsin the interest of non-disclosure, look at
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monstazayou would be surprised what  someone can find on google that  hasn't been  made public05:19
berndhsyes indeed, but this is about free speech for those who actually want to speak, if you look today05:22
platenice gfail.. Sorry, we are unable to retrieve the document for viewing or you don't have permission to view the document.05:23
platewonder what combination of cookies, JS, and G+ login theyre expecting05:23
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Paimengood morning07:22
hirsellanything to say about hardfp vs softfp for the coming arm target?07:22
hirsellI'm wondering since it may not be easy to get hardfp compiled versions of some BSP parts07:27
rasterhirsell: we use hradfp07:28
rastererr hardfp07:28
rasteras such everything we build for is armv7+07:28
raster(cortex a8,a9, a15 etc.)07:28
rasterso i suspect you'll end up with te binary standard being armv7+hardfp07:29
Stskeepsfloat-abi=hard, i presume, and not the misunderstood that mfloat-abi=softfp + fpu=neon/vfpv3-d16 is hardfp?07:29
Stskeepsmisunderstanding, that is07:30
Stskeepshirsell: linaro's moving to hardfp too, that should help matters07:30
hirsellStskeeps, yes, I know Linaro's moving, but last I heard they weren't there yet, hence some vendors don't support (officially) hardfp (GPU libs, MM codecs etc) yet07:32
hirsellraster: you support hardfp == tizen arm packages will be compiled with float-abi=hard by default?07:33
hirsellor are you planning to provide softfp reference builds as well?07:34
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raghavhey guys07:36
* sofar watches the blackout unfold07:36
Stskeepssofar: my bet is there'll be a significant baby boom of nerds with inception starting around today..07:37
rasterhirsell: i believe we are movign to hardfp only07:38
rasteras the soc's we have all have fpu's07:38
rasterthere is no point doing softfp07:38
rastertho actually we have used softfp abi before07:39
hirsellraster: understood07:39
rasterbut last i talked with some guys we were movign to hardfp07:39
raghavhow is tizen different from android?07:40
rastersofar:  ooh the sopa thing?07:40
rasterraghav: its not from google07:40
raghavbasically the core is same?07:40
rasterraghav:  it doesnt require u sign a restrictive agreement to gain access to the ecosystem07:40
sofarraster: yup07:40
raster(just look at what companeis have to agree to to gain access to market, google maps, etc. etc. - android is closed and restrictive when you get to there)07:41
sofarraster: I picked the worst time ever to try and bootstrap some prototype code that needs lots of stuff :)07:41
rastersofar:  hahahahahaha07:41
rasterraghav: it IS a gnue-linux os07:41
rasterandroid is not07:41
Stskeepsraghav: android has bionic libc, busybox and a dalvik/java based system and tizen is native code/html5/glibc/busybox07:41
rasterandorid is merely a heavily modified kernel07:41
rastertizen uses a standard kernel07:42
rasterwe dont have a custom ipc system (binder)07:42
rasteror custom driver power infra07:42
rasterlkike android07:42
rasterits standard driver model07:42
rastertizen ie eglibc07:42
rasternot newlib07:42
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raster(which is not posix compliant - eglibc is)07:42
rasterwe dont have the davlik jvm07:42
rasterwe dont have surfacflinger and audioflinger07:42
rasterwe use x11+enlightenment and pulseaudio for those07:43
rasterthe ui toolkit is efl07:43
rasterandroid is its own java based one07:43
rasteri can go on07:43
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rasterthey are VASTLY different07:43
raghavokay okay07:43
rasterthe only thgnis they share on a tech level is a large part of the kernel07:43
rasterie the bits that android has not heavily modified07:43
rasterthe rest is entirelly different07:44
rastertizen is about the same as debina or ubuntu or fedora etc.07:44
raghavso will it perform better than android?07:44
rasteron a concept level they do share being targetted for lower end system, touchsrceens, finger control, mobile etc.07:44
rasteryou make your own mind up07:44
rasteron that07:44
hirsellraster: do you know of any tizen userspace dependencies towards specific kernel apis/versions? will I be fine with a, say, 2.6.35?07:45
rasterfor us it performs better on the same hw07:45
sofarraghav: a question like that will be impossible to answer, since you can't remotely compare them...07:45
rasterhirsell: nothing that i know of07:45
raghavsorry i am a noob07:45
rasterwell nothing significant07:45
raghavso had to ask07:46
rastersofar:  we can :) we do. :)07:46
sofarwell, sure, but not in one word07:46
rastersofar: as for development we slap tizen onto the same android hw we make07:46
rasteron most respects u cant tell the difference07:46
rasterin SOME u can07:46
sofarright, but, how would tizen compare on different hardware?07:46
rastertizen scales to 720x1280 much better07:46
rasterit retains 60fps07:46
rasterwhile scrolling around our settings app for example07:47
sofarin general, you can talk about the performance aspects of the architecture07:47
rasterwhere android suffers07:47
rastermaybe 30fps or so07:47
sofarjava... etc.07:47
rastertizen also has nadroid beat iun quality07:47
rastertry loading some websites07:47
rasterand zoom and scroll around07:47
rasternotice that many images are renderd in 16bpp07:47
rasteru can see banding07:47
rasteror dithering patterns when scaled07:48
rastereverything we have in tizen is 32bpp07:48
rasterwe pay a hefty price in mem bandwidht for that quality07:48
rasterBUT... we still manage to be smooth despite shuffly a large % more mem around than android07:48
hirsellwrt audio performance: audio flinger (android) vs pulseaudio (tizen):
raghavso will this have paging like ubuntu so that it can have virual ram or something?07:49
rasterhirsell:  i saw that :)07:49
sofarlinux has paging, so, yes07:49
rasterraghav: yes07:49
rasterif uw anted to add swap, you can07:50
sofarahhh swap, so controversial07:50
raghavif it is ported to samsung wave  then it wont be bound by its limited 512mb?07:50
sofara bit of swap is nice07:50
sofarlots of swap? useless07:50
rastersofar: agreed07:50
rasterthere are lots of daemons that sit and lurk doing nothng for hours or even days07:51
sofarin meego we ended up trying to go down to 40mb swap for systems with 1gb memory07:51
rasteru'd want to swap them out until needed07:51
sofarslow storage can also be problematic07:51
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sofarthough most handsets have flash, but, netbooks might not and have terrible slow storage07:51
rastersofar:  true. depends on your storage07:51
raghavso its open source so can we expect custom roms for it?07:52
sofarthe times when you would create RAMx2 swap are over07:52
sofarunless you run outrageous Virtual Machines07:53
rastersofar:  tho from the mmc on a galaxys2 i get about 39-40mb/sec07:53
rasterand unlike hdd07:53
rasterthats "0" seek time07:53
sofaryeah, that's pretty neat07:53
rasterso for swap i'd say that would run rings arond swap on your spinning hdd there07:53
sofarI've got some netbooks with a 40gb intel ssd, lulz07:54
rasterso if u use swap on a spinning hdd07:54
rasterthen u can use it on mmc too07:54
rastersofar: enough space for swap? :)07:54
sofarno problems with swap on an SSD, but I'd be careful for cheap flash and bad firmware07:54
rasterraghav: i guess custom roms will depend on the manufacturer and reseller07:54
rasterraghav: rememebr that most telcos want to resell phones locks down to the hilt07:55
rastermanufacturers just do it because thats what the customer wants07:55
rasterte customer being the tellco07:55
raghavso users can also create roms right?07:55
rasterand they are the immediate customers of the phone makers07:55
rasteru can create them07:55
rasterif u cant fllash tyhem is another matter07:56
rastersofar:  yeah. thats the biggest problem. speed isnt it - slowing down is better than just apps hard crashing due to lack of mem07:56
rasterthe problem is killing your flash if ti wears fast07:56
raghavso it can run android apps?07:57
sofarevicting bad apps is probably a better way to manage memory07:57
rasterraghav: pointless unless u get access to market07:58
* sofar evicts himself from his seat and pages himself out to dormant storage location07:58
rasterand that requires u sign a contract with google and they approve your device07:58
rasterso no07:58
rasterit doesnt07:58
rastersofar: well u want to do everything07:59
rasteruw ant to message apps saying "hey - low on mem.. please give up whatever u can!"07:59
rasterso they voluntarily give up caches etc.07:59
rasteru also want to allow some sswapping of totallly dormant stuff07:59
* sofar wants to sleep :)07:59
sofarnight folks - I'm off to bed07:59
rasterand when u begin to get an undesireable amount of swapping out07:59
rasterfind some offenders to also kill08:00
rastersofar:  night!08:00
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raghavthanks raster ...usually people arent nice to noobs...thanks for providing me so much info08:00
raghavgotta go08:01
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hirsellwhat will it take to build a tizen compliant platform?08:03
rasteryo momma!08:04
rasterjust kidding08:04
rasteri actually don't know08:04
rasteri guess one that can run any web and native apps that come out in a reference platform08:04
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rasteror initial ones08:04
rasterif tis compatible - then good08:04
rastersuggestion would be to take the current platform and source08:05
rasterand just modify ad needed08:05
rasteru may literally just be adding things08:05
rasteror providing plugin modules for the modem u have08:05
rasteror other drivers08:05
rasteropengl etc.08:05
rasteru may want to make your own custom home screen app08:06
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hirsellI mean something like being able to carry the tizen logo etc08:08
hirsella definition similar to
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rasteri have no idea what "certification" is needed08:09
rasterif any at all08:09
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hirsella tizen compliant platform would probably have to provide the tizen HTML5 APIs, right?08:10
rasterand what the legal side of that it08:10
rasterit probably would have to do more08:10
rasternative side too08:10
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TAsnwhirsell, yeah, but it may also need a specific look and feel, you can't guess what's needed.08:10
rasteras well as conform to certain ui behavior08:10
Stskeepshirsell: it sounds like a good discussion topic for the mailing lists, may be better to get some LF/trademark people involved08:10
Stskeepswhich are unlikely to be on irc08:11
rasteri doubt u'll get an answer atm08:11
rasteras frankly i dont think anyone reallly knows atm08:11
hirsellI'm more curious about the technical/API/ABI side08:11
rasteru'll proobably just have to wait until thats all publically documented08:11
rasterhirsell: as i said08:11
rastertake current tizen08:11
hirselllets say someone decides to provide Qt in addition to HTML5 and EFL08:11
rasterdoing anything else is going to create trouble08:12
hirselllike Mer e.g.08:12
rasteri dont think anyone will stop u08:12
rasterbut it will only be on your device08:12
rasteror build08:12
hirsellyes, but will that platform/distro be able to be tizen compliant?08:12
rasternot on tizen platforms from other vendors08:12
TAsnwhirsell, define tizen complaint08:12
hirsellor will it be essentially on its own?08:12
TAsnwas raster said08:12
rasteras i said08:12
TAsnwthere's no certification yet08:12
StskeepsTAsnw: allowed to use tizen trademark08:12
rasteri know of no compliance setup08:12
TAsnw(or there well be)08:12
rasterits unknown08:12
rasteron a technicall level it means it will run the same stuff other tizen platforms do08:13
rasteru added  qt08:13
TAsnwStskeeps, I'm not talking about the outcome, I'm talking about the process.08:13
rasterthat means those qt apps wont run elsewhere08:13
rasterand thus will limit developer appeal08:13
TAsnwStskeeps, we can't tell if and how usage of the trademark will be allowed08:13
TAsnwraster, and the ui inconsistency will be terribly ugly. :)08:14
TAsnwI actually talked about it here yesterday. :)08:14
hirsellso that's why you'd probably need platform compliance + app compliance definition08:14
StskeepsTAsnw: so, the general idea of the compliancy stuff is to avoid fragmentation08:14
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StskeepsTAsnw: and this was typically controlled by a compliance definition, if you pass tests, you could use trademark08:15
Stskeepsin a specific way08:15
TAsnwStskeeps, yes, I'm aware of that.08:15
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TAsnwStskeeps, I'm saying exactly that08:15
rasterTAsnw:  well unless u do all the work to make it consistent... going to be hard there :)08:15
TAsnwwe don't know what the tests will be08:15
Stskeepsand people are just wondering how on earth it looks like in tizen, or intending to be like08:15
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TAsnwraster, and even then, different ui concepts. :) I don't have to tell you about it, you know it better than I do. :)08:15
TAsnwStskeeps, and raster said he doesn't know. :)08:15
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rasteru'd likely have to ensure those concepts are supported08:16
rasterand all the integration is done08:16
TAsnwbut heck, they may not allow stamping the platform because of ui inconsistency08:16
TAsnwand I wouldn't be mad about them for doing so08:16
TAsnwfor the exact same reasons I mentioned 12 hours ago.08:16
rasterTAsnw:  u could argue that bands all games using opengles08:16
TAsnwraster, bands? -d?08:17
rasterin fact webapps vs efl are already an inconsistent split08:17
TAsnwraster, those ugly-ass game menus are awful, yeah.08:17
TAsnwraster, don't the webapps use efl?08:17
rasterTAsnw:  err that bans all games08:17
TAsnwor just webkit-efl?08:17
rasterjust webkit-efl08:17
rasterthey cant use efl08:17
TAsnwso not efl at all08:17
rasterthey use html stuff08:17
TAsnwso yeah, that's an inconsistency08:17
Stskeepsmy personal hope would be that tizen compliancy concentrates on the webapp APIs, and that's it08:17
rasterdivs, css, html5 canvas , js etc.08:17
Stskeepsbut let's see how things pan out08:17
rasterits already there08:18
TAsnwraster, yeah.08:18
Stskeeps(i don't believe in binary compliancy, my own personal opinion)08:18
rasterStskeeps: not doing that kills native apps08:19
rasterand doing that will kill the platform imho08:19
rasterggame devs will just ignore it08:19
rasteras 90% of them )the bigger/better name ones)08:19
rasterhave their own game engines08:19
rasteror licens game engines08:19
rasterall in c/c++08:19
Stskeepsraster: i can agree to some extent08:19
rasterand opengl-es08:19
rasteror d3d08:19
hirsellI was more wondering about adding alternative app frameworks, like qt; if that will be 'allowed', or rather seen as 'you can do that but then you won't be tizen'08:20
Stskeepsthough egl/opengl-es is saner to have as a native API08:20
rasterif they cant depend on their binary working henceforth - then they will just go "meh - not woth it"08:20
rasterwe already have a problem with x86 vs arm08:20
rasterlets try and keep it that simple08:20
Stskeepsi wouldn't mind something like PNaCl08:21
Stskeepsraster: do you currently run ABI compatibility checks as part of your QA?08:22
rasterwe used to08:23
rasterit was actually as simple as requiring a gerrit review of any changes to header files08:23
rasterso not really abi08:23
rasterbut everyone bitched08:23
rasterso it was removed08:23
Stskeeps.. so how can you guarantee to a game/native app developer that their apps will work henceforth?08:24
rastercurrent platform is a preview08:24
rasternot even final08:24
rasterso does it matter?08:24
Stskeepsokay, so there is plans to re-add those checks, i would presume?08:25
rasteran abi check is pretty symple08:25
rasternm -D *.so.*08:25
rasterand log and compare08:25
rasterthats about the3 best u can do in an automated way08:25
rasterfor ABI08:25
rasterthat doesnt cover api tho08:25
rasterlittle u can do about api without having lots of test suites for everything08:25
Stskeepsnm -D doesn't really cover adding a parameter to a function declaration :P08:26
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rasterthere are lots of other subtle ways to break abi08:26
rasterthe header file changes are really a drag tho08:27
rasteras we are adding all the time08:27
rasterefl's docs are in the headers08:27
rasterie doxygen08:27
rasterso we add and improve docs08:27
rasterfix doc typos08:27
rasterit keeps neding review08:27
rasterand review is human08:27
rasterno automated check there08:27
rasterright now i know of no plans to add any abi checking08:28
rasteri believe tho obs had something08:28
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NekRhi :)09:48
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mckoangood morning10:58
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SeoZgood evening11:09
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mckoandoes exist a demo of Tizen? where can I download it?11:44
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VulcanI had a question .. which I'm quite sure has been asked before (but the irc logs on are not searchable and i thought i may as well ask)11:57 .. C++/Native app dev supported ?11:57
Vulcanon Tizen11:57
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mwichmannVulcanTheTerribl: perhaps it matters what you mean by "supported"12:02
VulcanTheTerriblcan i, if i wanted ... work exclusively with C++ and make an entire app on Tizen12:02
mwichmannof course it works to build native apps12:02
VulcanTheTerriblif theres one thing that has kept me from mobile app dev is not enough control12:03
mwichmannwhat status such an app might have remains to be seen... does it have "compatibility guarantees", does it get accepted to a particular app store, etc.12:03
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slaineThe native app SDK is based on EFL, I'm not aware of any C++ bindings for that (say like gtkmm)12:26
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TAsnwslaine, there are C++ bindings for efl.12:29
slaineTAsnw: cool12:30
slaineThe native app SDK is based on EFL, I've just been made aware of C++ bindings for that (like gtkmm)12:31
valosothers available bindings are Python, Javascript, Perl, Vala12:31
TAsnwslaine, ;P12:32
TAsnwbut the problem is interfacing with the platform12:32
TAsnwis the interface dbus based?12:32
TAsnwif so, it's easy12:32
TAsnwif not, you can use the c style12:32
TAsnwI guess. :)12:32
VulcanTheTerriblEFL ?12:37
valosTAsn: yes like FSO middleware12:37
VulcanTheTerriblI take it Samsung has flushed QT for good?12:38
TAsnwVulcanTheTerribl, yep.12:39
TAsnwvalos, exactly.12:39
TAsnwvalos, the platform APIs12:39
VulcanTheTerribltoo bad .. Nokia N8 looks quite nice and is damn responsive on less capable hardware than the droids12:39
TAsnwEFL is more responsive than both...12:42
VulcanTheTerriblI'm a big fan of squeezing capabilities out of unassuming hardware that is more power friendly12:42
VulcanTheTerriblDoes anyone else here have an NSLU2 ?12:42
VulcanTheTerriblso if I were to position myself well for the new Tizen based phones and C++, is it safe to say i should invest all my time on EFL right now?12:44
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tomi__Hi. Will the arm-target be available soon?13:03
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npmmaybe samsung realized that HTML5 is a terrible option?15:46
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wmarone_I like how "a decision has not yet been made" becomes "samsung backpedals"15:50
wmarone_and I think samsung acknowledges that html5+js isn't sufficient on its own which is why EFL is available15:50
SachielJournalism 10115:50
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npmwell it's a backpedal when all the announcements say they made a decision.15:52
npmso perhaps better messaging is needed, not better journalism?15:52
SachielAll I saw every time was that they were considering, not that a decision had been made.15:53
npmWSJ yesterday "Samsung Electronics Co. (005930.SE), the world's largest seller of smartphones, said Tuesday that it is in talks with Intel Corp. (INTC) to merge its own Bada mobile operating system with the Intel-backed platform Tizen, suggesting that Samsung could be looking to reduce its heavy reliance on Google Inc.'s Android mobile platform."15:53
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SachielShow me what was actually said, not what some reporter wrote about it.15:53
npm"enior Vice President Kang Tae-jin's comment made during an interview with Forbes magazine last week at the Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas that Samsung is seeking to merge its Bada mobile operating system with a platform it is building with Intel called Tizen. "15:53
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SachielWhere's the rest of that? It doesn't say they had made any decision15:56
npmwell sounds like they need to muzzle their VP then...15:56
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eldarhey guys! what's the status of Qt/QML support in Tizen? is it going to be dropped completely in favour of HTML5?16:00
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Stskeepsthe app story in tizen is html5+wac 2.0+tizen services, it looks like16:01
TAsneldar, not going to be dropped, already dropped.16:01
Stskeepstizen current source code seems derived from the project formerly known as Samsung Linux Platform, but with connman instead of dnet16:01
Stskeepsso it never had qt in the first place16:01
eldarOh well, that sucks then. HTML5 is good for what it was meant to be, but it can't really be compared to proper toolkits for app development. Anyway, I don't intend to start yet another holywar.16:04
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eldarThe reason I asked was that this project officially took over from Meego.16:04
Stskeepsit didn't really16:04
Stskeepsintel just went this direction16:04
Sachielnpm: That does look more like an affirmation, but I still wonder if it's free interpretation leaving things out or if the guy should really learn to communicate things more clearly. That you can't know unless you have the whole thing, and frankly, it doesn't even matter.16:05
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npmSachiel: it does matter because there's been so much back-and-forth related to this project. Doesn't bode well given history.16:38
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dnearyHi all17:28
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dnearyStkeeps: here?20:32
Stskeepsdneary: yup?20:33
dnearySorry for typo :-)20:34
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Stskeepshehe, i got the highlight anyway ;)20:34
dnearyAre you still IRC logs guy?20:35
Stskeepsnop, halstead20:35
Stskeeps(at least for here)20:35
dnearyThe log format changed mid December. Just wondering if you knew why, and what the new format is?20:36
Stskeepsi think they changed to a supybot based setup vs a irssi client just running in a screen20:37
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* slaine waves to dneary20:38
dnearyOk. We missed a few days logs too. I'll try the supybot parser tomorrow20:38
dnearyHi slaine20:39
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slainedneary: good christmas ?20:39
dnearySo - I've been workibg on my community vocabulary to get people thinking of a gardening metaphor20:40
dnearyslaine: unforeseen. My youngest spent a week in hospital, we had to defer flights home.20:41
dnearyAll's well that ends well. He recovered well.20:43
dnearySo +20:44
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slainedneary: oh no20:47
dnearyVocabulary. You sow the seeds of a community, help make it sustainable, as part of the ecosystem,  cultivate relationships, tend to the community's needs, prune and weed as needed.20:47
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slaineaccident or difficulties due to cold/flu ?20:48
dnearyI think it's better than construction or shepherding.20:48
Stskeepsdneary: makes sense - i would say construction is the mistake corporations usually do20:49
dnearySome kind of infection.20:49
Stskeepsie, they buy a big farm but forget to sow the seeds..20:49
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dnearyInternal bleeding in the abdomen was the main worry. He got dehydrated and had a lot of pain. Was operated for appendicitis, but the appendix was fine.20:51
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dnearySorry dis connected20:54
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dnearyWhat did you see last?20:54
Stskeepsinternal bleeding20:55
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Robot101dneary: sounds nasty, glad to hear he's recovered.20:57
dnearyAh yes20:57
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dnearyThey did tests, the bleeding had stopped, they kept him in until the fever went down, kept him hydrated20:58
dnearyEverything looked OK and the bleeding just stopped.20:59
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mwichmannjust fwiw, I'm finding the gardening vocabulary above a little strained20:59
mwichmanndon't have a full answer for making it better but some thoughts:21:01
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mwichmannmonoculture vs. a diverse planting where difference plants support each other21:02
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mwichmannI think the corp mistake is more like monoculture than forgetting to sow21:03
mwichmann"here's this great new garden, hope you like corn because that's what it is"21:04
mwichmann"we plantd it all for you already"21:04
mwichmannand then seed-saving as the mechanism for sustainability: keep the best and use to improve next go-round21:05
dnearymwichmann: it's all phrases we use, I'm just consciously using it. And yez, it also shows that if you pre plan too much...21:05
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dnearyAnyway, night.21:06
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halsteadStskeeps, For when dneary is around again yes we did switch from irssi to supybot. And no logs went missing. What he sees is a timezone switch from PST to UTC so it jumps 8 hours.21:39
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SeoZmorning here :)23:00
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