IRC log of #tizen for Monday, 2012-01-09

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TNarutohmm, i can't connect to source.tizen.org06:21
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wmaronenope06:23
wmaroneit was apparently not supposed to be up06:23
wmaroneso it is now no longer up06:23
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TNarutoi see.06:25
Stskeepsthat said, tizen doesn't look half bad, especially if theme-able: http://realnorth.net/blog/tizen-primer-contacto/06:25
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GreatgibStskeeps: have you still a clone of the tizen git for me to clone from you?09:11
Stskeepsnah, i don't have it all - let them launch it properly09:12
Stskeepsthere's more benefit in a succesful tizen platform for all of us than a premature launch where it is deemed as doomed09:12
Stskeepsinvolvement/mobile push in upstream projects, etc09:13
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TAsnwStskeeps +109:13
TAsnwleaking an half baked product that may get bad reviews09:13
TAsnwis bad for everyone interested in the success of this project09:14
Stskeepsbecause frankly, i'd like to see android to get a shift kick in the balls09:14
Stskeeps:P09:14
TAsnwStskeeps another +109:14
TAsnw:P09:14
Stskeepsand get people back to making hw adaptations for glibc based systems09:14
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GreatgibStskeeps: on the other side, if we could have a look and  the half ready thing sucks, there is still time to fix things and to change their minds where it would be to late when the product will be finished.... That's the spirit of freesoftware09:16
StskeepsGreatgib: one thing that was learnt from meego handsets was that releasing earlier causes doom for handsets :/09:16
TAsnwexactly09:17
TAsnwGreatgib, the press is not merciful09:17
TAsnwthe big difference between community initiated free software and tizen09:17
TAsnwis the early press09:17
TAsnwtizen will not get free time to mature09:17
TAsnwit'll either be liked or hated09:18
GreatgibStskeeps: what i have learnt from meego, is that just releasing an image from nowhere whithout concertation give a dead thing...09:18
GreatgibTAsnw: the first version of android where not so good and today you could see where it is...09:18
StskeepsGreatgib: it's a bit more complex, but long story short, anything that remotely resembles a handset product will be unmercifulled murdered in the press at any kind of launch, even premature09:19
TAsnwGreatgib, still not good?09:19
Stskeepswe got shit for making a handset image that showed an xterm :)09:19
TAsnwGreatgib, android was not released as a product at first09:19
TAsnwit was released as a hacking system for developers09:19
TAsnwwith theg109:19
TAsnwg1*09:19
TAsnwand it was forcibly pushed down everyone's throughtns09:20
TAsnwfor a long period of time09:20
GreatgibTAsnw: Yes, and a lot of people are not expecting anything other of tizen09:20
TAsnwby many strong forces09:20
TAsnwuntil it became mainstream09:20
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GreatgibTAsnw: it as succeeded because they managed to keep working on it, keep communicating and supporting it, and releasing often...09:21
TAsnwGreatgib, if tizen will be less than what's android today or maybe was in 2.1 (first decent release) it'll be slaughtered.09:21
TAsnwGreatgib, yes, they pushed hard, for a long time, with determination.09:21
TAsnwbut we don't want to make things hard on tizen09:21
GreatgibTAsnw: i'm not at all of this opinion, but it is true that business guys could think like this09:21
TAsnwwe want to give it the best chance possible09:22
Stskeepsbesides that, the damage is already done09:22
TAsnwGreatgib, I agree with you, I would have been fine with just getting a naked system with X.09:22
Stskeeps(check tizen search on twitter..)09:22
StskeepsTAsnw: +109:22
Stskeepsor just WRT in itself09:22
TAsnw:P09:22
TAsnwyeah09:22
TAsnwjust a compiler09:22
TAsnwnothing more09:23
TAsnwah and a device09:23
TAsnw:P09:23
GreatgibTAsnw: i dont think so, out there, there were plenty of people willing to help to work on it, a lot of people and companies that have hope in meego. I think that Tizen will have lost most of them to have ignored them for monthes09:23
TAsnwwould have been enough.09:23
TAsnwGreatgib, I'm not saying that everything was handled well until now09:23
TAsnwI'm just saying that even though some tizen related people made some wrong decisions09:24
TAsnwwe should support tizen in a non selfish way09:24
GreatgibTAsnw: The thing is that you don't need to say that Tizen 1.0 is out, just that the source is open for developpers and so on, you would still be able to release it as 1.0 when it is really ready09:24
TAsnwGreatgib, but if people run it and see it crashes all the time09:24
TAsnwdo you think09:24
TAsnwpeople will still be interested?09:24
TAsnwI doubt it.09:24
StskeepsGreatgib: long story short: the press do not understand open development09:24
Stskeepsthey see a release and they think it's the final one09:25
GreatgibTAsnw: also, it would have been possible to keep some "mystery" by keeping secret the ui or something like that but still communicate about the platform and all09:25
Stskeepsdo i need to bring out bada platform architecture diagram?09:25
Stskeeps:P09:25
TAsnwGreatgib, that wolud have been good handling09:25
TAsnwGreatgib, but they didn't do it for their own reasons09:25
TAsnwwe are talking about everything or nothing09:26
GreatgibTAsnw: Stskeeps: you don't necesseraly need to already give the build script or an image. Then people that don't know will not be able to say that it crash all the time09:26
TAsnwand I don't want to see everything exposed prematurely.09:26
StskeepsGreatgib: there's always people who will get -something- to build09:26
Stskeeps:P09:26
Stskeepsi'm one of them09:26
Stskeepsi got intel's tablet UX running on ARM before it showed up in public on intel devices09:26
GreatgibStskeeps: yep but no one will be able to generalize things from there,09:27
Stskeepswell, ok, timelines were a bit off09:27
StskeepsGreatgib: if there's anything to generalise, the press will09:27
Stskeepslike now, they're interpreting the tizen SDK screenshots as a new samsung handset09:27
TAsnwyep09:28
TAsnw"that will surely be presented at mwc"09:28
GreatgibBut also, samsung being silent will lead the press to follow rumors.09:29
Stskeepsprobably, but then they're rumours09:29
Stskeepsit's different when there's fact09:29
TAsnwI believe Samsung hired better PR agents than you and I.09:29
TAsnw:P09:29
TAsnwTrust them to know how to handle the press.09:29
GreatgibToday, in france, an internet provider is about to launch a new telecom company for mobile phone with prices that would be terrific09:29
GreatgibBut for months, they only said that they will bring something terrific and nothing more, result: there was a millions of rumors, speculations, fake price shits, ....09:30
Stskeepsanyway, there were some quite good things in the source release, as well as the proposed contribution methods09:30
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Stskeepsso tizen is no longer vaporware in my head09:30
GreatgibStskeeps: That is the good point i think09:31
chouchounehaha, Greatgib, you can't compare Free and Samsung : not the same business nor influence in the opinion09:31
Stskeepsfrom what i gathered, they'll use a gerrit like setup for contributions (like in Mer, android, except not as in android as android review is a sham..), and a quite simple platform SDK based on SB209:31
Stskeepsand that's a big plus in my book09:32
chouchouneFree is like Apple, whatever they will show or not show, the press will tell good things09:32
Stskeepsas commits will be transparent09:32
Greatgibchouchoune: just to say that when you give nothing to the press, they have to invent things...09:32
chouchouneion mobile phones, the press will try to find anything bad about Android and iOS competitors, just to say "it's another crap"09:32
chouchouneGreatgib: but the press was not expecting anything from Tizen that would be even a bit close to what the french press is expecting from Free09:33
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chouchounemoi ce qui me fait marrer, c'est qu'apparemment la plateforme de reference de Tizen serait de l'ARM (Cortex A8 si j'ai bien lu)09:38
chouchouneenfin, attendons de voir la release officielle, mais Intel a l'air de se faire pietiner par Samsung09:39
TAsnwchouchoune, hm.. ?09:40
chouchounesorry09:42
chouchounewanted to say that in #meego-fr09:42
chouchoune;)09:43
TAsnwah09:43
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JeroenpcGood day everybody11:30
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Stskeepswello11:31
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JeroenpcI am looking into possible ivi frontends for my car. Currently i am using Centrafuse and that does not satisfy me.11:34
JeroenpcEvaluating Meego is also not going well because of driver issues (realtek nic), so i have arrived at tizen.11:35
Stskeepstizen's not really public yet :/11:35
JeroenpcI read on the website a release is in this quarter11:35
Stskeepsperhaps in a month or so11:36
JeroenpcBut there is not much information on the site11:36
Jeroenpcfeatures/ system requirements11:36
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uliyneronHi, tell me plese, where you can see me more about the operating system Tizen?14:06
chouchouneuliyneron: what do you mean ?14:07
chouchouneyou want us to SHOW you more ?14:07
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uliyneronThe official website of very little information we would like to know more14:08
chouchouneuliyneron: yes, but that's all of the official information we have14:09
chouchouneyou will have to wait for more official communication14:09
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CissWitor for an other fail.14:11
uliyneronThanks for your answers14:14
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Jeroenpcok, thank you14:21
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Jeroenpcgood luck developing!14:21
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k2rHow can i get the sources? I wanna play with it!16:52
k2rHi, everybody16:52
sofarjust wait a little bit16:52
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k2rbut that's a lot!! :D16:53
sofarmaybe it's just fifteen minutes16:53
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k2rreally? Thank you!16:54
DawnFosterk2r: or less16:54
DawnFostercheck out the home page16:54
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DawnFosterhttps://www.tizen.org/16:54
sofaryeah, just get some coffee first ;)16:54
TAsnwsweet.16:55
k2rOuh yes!! Thank you!!16:55
* sofar makes sure he is subscribed to the lists :)16:56
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cedricDawnFoster: \o/16:56
cedricthat's a good news !16:56
pixelgeek:)16:57
StskeepsDawnFoster: congrats on the launch :)16:57
DawnFoster:)16:57
StskeepsDawnFoster: "Developing your first tizen application" leads to an unreachable page, on http://source.tizen.org/16:58
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Stskeeps(server down, or something)16:58
DawnFosterwhich page is that on?16:58
DawnFosteroh16:58
DawnFosterDNS propogation, I think16:58
TAsnwwfm16:58
* stefan_schmidt sees the git server ddos'ed the next hours16:58
TAsnwstefan_schmidt, haha16:58
TAsnwfor sure16:58
DawnFosterwe just re-enabled the dns redirect after the fiasco this weekend.16:59
TAsnwDawnFoster, you'd probably want to mirror to github/gitorious16:59
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Sachielare there plans to have repositories with their original history?16:59
DawnFosterwe should be tracking git history from here on17:00
TAsnwI guess he means17:00
TAsnwfrom original projects17:00
TAsnwas well as internal17:00
Sachielyes, that17:00
sofarthe git server is rarther beefy17:01
sofarI pulled 12 trees simultaneously this weekend17:01
cedricsofar: i bet you are not allone on it :)17:01
sofarall 300 of them in under 5 minutes17:01
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Stskeepsyes, agreed, the git server is quite nice17:01
TAsnwthe documentation page looks awful though17:01
sofaronly webkit-efl will be a problem17:01
TAsnwneeds a theme asap17:01
sofartakes 20 minutes to clone or so17:01
StskeepsDawnFoster: could have been worse, the UI and SDK actually looks polished (re fiasco)17:02
TAsnwcya.17:02
DawnFosterStskeeps: yeah, we just didn't plan for those to go live until now.17:02
sofarDawnFoster: are you sending announcements to the MLs?17:02
DawnFosterbut everything was done, so it looked pretty good17:03
Stskeepsyeah17:03
mivahoDawnFoster: Congrats, you made a lot of nervous people happy today with just that one line :)17:03
StskeepsDawnFoster: +1 on platform SDK and contribution method, at least17:03
kanishkaoh man17:03
kanishkasource is release17:03
StskeepsDawnFoster: as well as a method to claim merit/ask for maintainership in the website17:04
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cedricthe fact that apps are part of the release is an awesome news17:08
Stskeepswhere is the apps in source?17:09
cedricor not17:09
cedricit's maybe just the api17:09
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cedricdamn17:09
cedricto happy to see the name17:09
cedricjust starting to look at it17:10
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cedricand it's just the API, not the app :'(17:11
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Stskeepswell, i must say the WRT is the interesting part17:11
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DawnFosterNote this part of the blog post: These tools, together with their corresponding documentation and source code, will provide developers with information required to become familiar with Tizen development. Please keep in mind that this is a very early preview and is not yet designed for use to create production applications.17:12
DawnFosterthis is an early look for developers - nothing for end users to see here until developers start building apps with the sdk17:13
BeholdMyGloryWill there be a release of the SDK that doesn't depend on dpkg et al, so you can get it running on other distributions than Ubuntu?17:15
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sofaryou can run dpkg on non-debian platforms17:16
* sofar gets ready to drive to work17:17
StskeepsDawnFoster: since this is early preview, any bugtracker up?17:17
DawnFostersomeone decided we didn't need a bug tracker for an early preview17:18
Stskeepsalright17:18
pixelgeek404 on https://bugs.tizen.org/17:18
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DawnFosterthere is no bug tracker yet17:21
DawnFosterwhich explains where that's a 404 :)17:22
Alison_ChaikenBeholdMyGlory, just use an Ubuntu Qemu-kvm.   It's easy.17:22
pixelgeek:P17:22
Alison_ChaikenI see Tizen is still X11: interesting!17:22
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chouchouneAlison_Chaiken: EFLs weren't adapted to Wayland, so that's not a big surprise ...17:26
Alison_ChaikenI assume chouchoune that Wayland support is coming soon.17:27
Sachielalready there, in part at least17:27
chouchouneok, I thought that it was postponed17:29
chouchounedue to Waylabnd's early state17:29
cedricit's more like that17:30
cedricwayland is still to young to base a product on it17:30
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Sachielbut since it's the new hot thing and making evas work on it wasn't hard (apparently), there's work towards having the showcase ready going on17:31
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cedricthere is a huge walk from the prototype to the product17:31
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Sachielnah, it's just attaching a 1.0 at the end17:35
TAsnSachiel, lol.17:36
Dinnouti"Tizen SDK doesn't support 64bits environment yet." Is there any workaround to install the SDK on a 64 bits environment :-) ?17:36
Stskeepsit's 2012, can't people use VMs? ;)17:37
TAsnor a chroot17:37
Sachielyou have a hook to say that every time someone mentions a vm?17:37
TAsnSachiel, yes17:37
TAsnbecause it's linux17:37
TAsnnot windows17:37
TAsnwe avoid redundancy17:37
TAsnand like performance17:38
TAsnI want to spread the word.17:38
Paimen:)17:38
* csdb looks through the packaging for the git repos17:38
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csdbThe repos I've looked seem setup for both rpm and deb builds17:39
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TAsnSachiel, was your git history uestion answered?17:44
Sachielnope17:44
TAsnSachiel, I'm too lazy to read the backlog. :)17:44
TAsnah shit.17:44
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* csdb sees that eglibc is in and it has no specfile, along with a few others missing specfiles. debian/ seems to be in all of them...17:45
csdbI just realized that I'll be fueling an old flame by commenting on the deb/rpm state of the repos17:46
* csdb shuts up17:46
TAsnDawnFoster, Why does the sdk require root?!17:46
DawnFosterTAsn: Not sure - MeeGo sdk had a similar requirement.17:47
TAsnDawnFoster, really? that's odd.17:48
TAsnread a bit more17:48
TAsnand it seems that it installs to system-wide locations17:48
TAsnI guess that's why.17:48
TAsnbut still, evil. :)17:48
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DawnFosterTAsn: We'd have to talk to the guys at Samsung that built the SDK to find out for sure.17:48
lbtTAsn: no worries .. your chroot offers security isolation doesn't it?17:49
cedric:)17:49
TAsnlbt, yep, but there are people that use ubuntu as host17:49
TAsnand they woludn't need a chroot17:49
TAsnDawnFoster, i.c, thanks.17:49
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TAsnlbt, but they'll still be running things as root17:50
lbtTAsn: does the SDK need root or just the installer?17:50
TAsninstaller I bet17:50
lbtI suspect so - although in meego root is needed as part of the build process too17:50
TAsnwth?17:51
TAsnwhy?17:51
lbttechnically work-around-able but it makes chroots and such like - then runs the actual build as a user17:51
TAsnsomething is fishy about meego then17:51
TAsnI think you got rooted by nokia17:51
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lbtdistinctly possible17:51
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TAsnlbt, I'm sorry for you. :P17:52
lbterr, thank you17:53
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oytunxif intel leaves tizen at all to Samsung, they even make it like Android and bada. DawnFoster: Please get more involved in it18:10
DawnFosteroytunx: Intel is heavily involved in the project. Keep in mind this is just the first step to give developers a starting point.18:11
oytunxi'm very happy to hear that, thank you18:12
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plategive developers a starting point? have they not read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inner-platform_effect18:32
plateput a device on the market that runs debian/arch/gentoo out of the box and i may buy it. countless man-hours architecting na "SDK" or an "API" or a "Platform' is out of the question :)18:32
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* Stskeeps browses through the sb2 patches18:38
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TAsnStskeeps, thta's actually interesting, please let me know how big is the diff, and if you asses it can/should be merged upstream.18:52
Stskeepsthere's work going on in sb2 2.3 branch, we've been using SB2 together with OBS in Mer as well18:52
Stskeepsthe version is like 2.2 based18:53
Stskeeps(in tizen)18:53
TAsnis the diff big?18:53
Stskeepsi haven't checked because orig.tar.gz'es aren't exactly provided :P18:54
Stskeepswill get to that during work time18:54
TAsn:)18:54
TAsnplease keep me posted18:54
Stskeepswill do18:54
TAsnthanks.18:55
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TAsnDawnFoster, you (tizen) should really consider adding a bug tracker for community suggestions, if you don't want for bugs. People may provide insights, or just plain good ideas. The whole point of open source is collaboration, not just letting people read messy undocumented .c files.19:11
TAsnnow I'm really off.19:11
TAsnbtw, comment about .c files - not related to tizen, haven't reviewed the code.19:12
DawnFosterI lost that battle - I wanted a bug tracker19:12
DawnFosterfor now, post issues / questions to the mailing list19:12
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DawnFosterwhile I continue to work on convincing people that a bug track is a must have19:12
TAsnDawnFoster, that's a recipe for redundancy. You'll get the same questions/suggestions posted on a daily basis.19:13
TAsnDawnFoster, not even for bugs, just for general suggestions.19:13
DawnFosterYes, I know. That was one of the arguments I made19:13
TAsnok, cool.19:13
DawnFosterI understand how important it is19:13
TAsnin DawnFoster we trust.19:13
DawnFoster:)19:13
DawnFosternow if I can just convince some other people ...19:13
TAsnDawnFoster, give us their mail addresses and we'll make sure to spam them until they get the message. :)19:14
TAsnOk, now I really gtg.19:14
TAsnmye.19:14
MarcA-Nsounds like you need a tizen bugbot19:14
TAsnbye*19:14
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DawnFosterhey MarcA-N - good to hear from you!19:14
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k2rI don't know lot of things19:17
k2rWhy installer need graphics, only 32 bits support, ...19:18
k2rWould be easier running an script that downloading all the needed resources19:19
piercek2r: 32 is for power efficiency, and I think the installer can run headless19:19
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k2rI can't run it without graphic env19:22
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MarcA-NFor sure DawnFoster I am here to support and soak it in!19:30
guroimpressive indeed. "we dont need a bugtracker". the overspecified and absurd "message->is_meeting_invite" struct in email.c is something too. guess i dont belong here. maybe one day Samsung wil release a phone that runs debian19:30
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Stskeepserm, it .. is actually debian based?19:35
Stskeeps:P19:35
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* csdb was thinking about that too. 19:37
csdbSeems there's more debian/ subdirs than there are specfiles...19:37
Stskeepsin practice it doesn't matter much, the app story is .wgt/WAC19:38
Stskeepswhich i'm actually happy about19:38
csdbAgreed it doesn't matter to write apps, but some people want to write more than apps...19:38
Stskeeps:nod:19:38
vgradeanyone succeded with /home/ubuntu/sbs-install/bin/sbs -c19:41
vgradeI'm getting I: Retrieving Release19:41
vgradeE: Failed getting release file http://112.106.1.254/home/tizen/apt.sbs/armel/dists/slp2-target/Release19:41
vgradesbs: failed to perform requested operation19:41
Stskeepsvgrade: only i386 port available19:41
Stskeepsno sources, just x86, as far as i can tell19:41
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argretzithere is another apt mirror at https://download.tizen.org/home/tizen/apt.sbs/19:44
Stskeepsta - the sbs stuff points to the ip, may be a good thing to fix19:45
argretziyou can override with an environment variable, SBS_APT_SERVER19:47
Stskeeps:nod:19:47
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rZrlbt: is this confirmed that tizen will be a debian based distro ?19:58
lbtno19:58
rZranyway i was happy to see those debian folders in git repo19:59
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oytunxthey officially say .rpm, as i remember20:03
Stskeepsit kinda doesn't matter, though20:04
Stskeeps:P20:04
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vgradeargretzi, used that env var but script still uses http not https20:04
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rZrare there any bridge between maemo/harmattan and tizen ?20:10
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oytunxdebian20:13
rZrwell spoted20:15
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captainigloo./tizen_sdk.bin22:48
captainigloo=== Preparing to install ===22:48
captainiglooTizen SDK doesn't support 64bits environment yet.22:48
captainiglooplease NO ....22:48
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aukeit's a feature!22:52
aukelet's see, where is our bug tracker again?22:52
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csdbauke, back to sysvinit for tizen ?23:16
csdbI only see a sysvinit repo, no systemd23:16
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aukehoping to address that "problem" soon :)23:24
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enginnerdAnyone running into the following error when running "sbs -c"23:30
enginnerdI: Retrieving Release23:30
enginnerdE: Failed getting release file http://112.106.1.254/home/tizen/apt.sbs/armel/dists/slp2-target/Release23:30
enginnerdsbs: failed to perform requested operation23:30
vgradeenginnerd, yes, seems arm repos are not avaiable23:40
* enginnerd thanks vgrade23:41
csdbauke, good to hear23:42
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