IRC log of #tizen for Thursday, 2011-09-29

--- Log opened Thu Sep 29 00:00:23 2011
Jockelbut if e17 is your "baby" you know some other windowmanager, which are your rivalry?! or?00:00
rasterthey all suck (of course)00:00
raster:)00:00
Jockellol00:00
swishyevilwm ;)00:00
Jockelcome on... i need a list ;)00:01
Jockelthanks00:01
exmanI was big fan of Enlightenment when I used to helix gnome :-)00:01
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swishyJockel actually evil is tile based come to think of it not what you want00:02
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JockelI do not know about "tile based"00:04
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Jockelwhat does it mean?00:05
Jockeltile based00:05
rastermethinks you have a lot to learn about wm's and de's and "shells" etc. :)00:05
Jockelwhich UI's are not "tile based"?00:05
rastertime to google for them and play with as many as u can00:05
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Jockeldo you know any active community in this area of windowsmanager for new UI's like touch and speach input and so on?!?00:06
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rastereach wm and desktop env has its own community00:07
rasterenlightenment has its own00:07
rasterits one of the major ones that has focused on "new ui's over the years00:07
exmanraster, EFL's component naming is little bit difficult to imagine what component do... e.g eet, eina ...00:07
rasterie not following the crowd00:07
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rasterexman: its documented00:07
Jockelraster: <raster> each wm and desktop env has its own community => AND THAT IS A PROBLEM ;-)00:07
rasterJockel: welcome to the real world00:08
raster:)00:08
Jockelmostly it is disto-based....00:08
exmanraster, don't mind. It's just my feeling :-)00:08
rasterexman: http://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/EFLOverview00:09
rasterseen that?00:09
rasterhttp://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=about00:09
exmannot yet.00:09
raster?00:09
Jockeland this means: lost in other system-problems.... and not concentrated on the UI/windowmanager00:09
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rasterhttp://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/IntroductionToEFL00:09
rasteru can find lots of docs in the wiki00:09
rasterhttp://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=docs00:09
exmanBut I've learned evas about 5 years ago00:10
rastercomplete (or complete in as that all the api calls any app dev would normally need are documented)00:10
exmanat that time, I've used evas with glib main event loop00:10
rasterhttp://trac.enlightenment.org/e/wiki/DevDocs00:10
exmanbut looks now e is using ecore..00:10
exmanfor main event loop00:10
rasterwell e always used ecore00:10
exmanright ?00:10
Jockelecore?00:10
rasterevas itself doesnt know about a mainloop or care00:10
rasterJockel: the wm and desktop development teams are totally unrelated to the distro development00:11
rasteri can tell u that00:11
rasterexman:  ecore has been around about as long as evas00:11
raster:)00:12
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Jockelmosty the disto-teams have somybody, who is doing the link to the windowsmanager-community00:12
rasterJockel: yes, but the wm dev teams are separate00:12
rasterthey focuse on ui/wm00:12
exmanraster, I've implemented some program using evas on the QApplication too at that time :-)00:13
rasterand whatever is immediately required00:13
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exmanJockel, If you want to make new wm. I recommend to review icewm first. If you know the Qt, meego-compositor is also good reference.00:16
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JockelTHANKS!00:17
rasteror uc an just use e17 that has all theinfra there00:17
mike_ma new WM?00:17
rasterand u can adjust its layout policies with runtime patches (modules/plugins)00:17
mike_mwhat would be the point?00:17
rasterso that saves u a lot of work00:17
mike_mwheel... reinvent...00:17
rastermike_m: people told me that in 1996 when i started e :)00:18
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mike_msure.00:18
mike_mand that was 15 years ago00:18
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finnomenonhello00:19
rasterexman:  ecore went ionto svn 10 months after evas.. which was back in 200200:19
rasterwell it went into cvs back then00:19
rastermike_m: its easy to tell people to write a new wm... 99% of them give up screaming in agony soon enough and come to their senses :)00:19
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Jockelraster: Do you know any ARM-device, which is running e17?00:20
rasterit has its own filtering mechanism. only the certifiably insane manage to cling onto writing them00:20
raster:)00:20
mike_mJockel, the beagle board? :-)00:20
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rasterJockel: freerunner, freebox uses efl for its ui, openembedded angstrom offers e17 (beagleboard etc.)00:21
rasterother than that a lot of prototype stuff around00:21
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exman(I am not include in 99%. Because, I've implemented my own wm for my custom window system :-) )00:22
cedricraster: freebox was a mips, not arm :)00:23
mike_mexman, for fun or money?00:23
rasterexman: thats easier.. implementing an x11 wm... thats true nuttiness :)00:23
rastercedric:  oh yeah. same thing tho00:24
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exmanmike_m, both of them00:24
rasterjust less grunt00:24
exmanmike_m, (and I've ported to gtk+2.x in my custom window system. That was funny experience for me :-) )00:24
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glpJockel: e17 is included amongst the OpenWrt packages00:25
Jockelokay00:26
Jockelnice :)00:26
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Jockelnormaly OpenWRT is not for UI-based systems...00:27
exmanraster, looks e has own dbus implementation... Do you have plan to port policykit/consolekit into efl ? If e use the glib, supporting PolicyKit will be easy...00:28
Jockeland has embedded chips.... mipsel, arm, and this stuff00:28
Jockeland if they offers e17,..... I HAVE TO LOOK on e17 :-P00:28
rasterexman: not an implementation - just a wrapper to glu libdbus inot the ecore mainloop and provide some convenience calls00:29
rasterevents, callback hooks and some function call api wrappers around common dbus apis'00:30
cedricexman: not sure, but aren't consolekit/policykit deprecated by using systemd ?00:30
glpJockel: OpenWrt can do whatever you need it to do ;-)00:30
exmancedric, you mean that systemd of Meego ?00:30
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rastersystemd of fedora too00:31
bzhbraster: Is efl working with wayland ?00:31
rasterand gentoo00:31
rasterand...00:31
rasterbzhb:  currently no.00:31
cedricbzhb: is wayland working ? :)00:31
exmanI am not sure... but my Ubuntu box still using PolicyKit00:31
bzhbis there any work on it ?00:31
Paimenwe have MeeGo running on wayland and HW is wetab00:31
rastertho we already render with either software  shm buffers (wayland display method #1) and via opengl-es2 (wayland display method #2)00:31
rasterso we are in principle totally aligned with waylands design00:32
rasterbzhb:  currently, no.00:32
bzhbok00:32
exmanAnd AFAIK, meego uxlaunch is using consolekit now00:32
exmanwhen x session initialize00:32
exmanwhich input method framework is used in EFL ? ibus ?00:34
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cedricfrom what i know, but i am not an expert at all with consolekit, it's something the login manager handle00:34
cedrici think that's elsa, efl based login manager, do it, but not sure at all00:35
exmancedric, right. It can be used for checking log in from where in policykit00:35
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rasterexman: it has a generic plugin module - so far the only one we ship is an xim one00:36
exmanokay... do you have any plan to use iBus in efl ?00:36
exmanor SCIM00:37
rasterscim stuff already exists00:37
exmanoh really? but not merged in mainstream ?00:38
rasterits modified though for vkbd support and not in upstream svn00:38
raster(yet)00:38
rasterwhen/if/where - unknown00:38
rasteru'll have to wait00:38
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exmanraster, which component of EFL has im plugin module ? ecore ? evas ?00:41
chouchounemmmhhh, lot of e17/EFL talk here ...00:41
chouchouneis it stated that Tizen will be e17/EFL based for native things / base UI (embedding Webkit-EFL eventually) ?00:42
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Stskeepschouchoune: the important thing is the html5 apis + wac + 'common services' part, i think underlying toolkit matters less00:43
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exmanchouchoune, sorry, I just curious about e. because currently, I have interested about efl.00:44
rasterexman: ecore_imf00:44
rasterchouchoune: ....00:44
raster'"Hi. I'm raster. I seem to be the BDFL of E (Enlightenment). I work at Samsung Electronics (Korea) in the Mobile R&D division as principal engineer and use E & EFL for making applications and mobile OS's. No I don't work on Android, Bada, or WP7."'00:44
Stskeepsraster: you're not mentioning Tizen ;)00:45
exmanraster, thank you~00:45
chouchouneStskeeps: I don't agree with you00:45
rasterStskeeps: >..<00:45
chouchounewhat's important is the extensions we'll be abl;e to give to HTML5 things00:45
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chouchounein GTK, you have SeedKit for example to make native extensions00:45
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chouchouneto HTML5/Webkit things00:46
Stskeepschouchoune: that's where WAC and so on fit in00:46
chouchouneok, don't know WAC that much00:46
* discomfitor prepares to answer any efl networking questions00:46
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exmanI curious about HTML5 development environment... how debug the WAC app ... how can we distribute ...00:46
chouchounelooked bad to me at the first look :/00:46
Stskeepschouchoune: go look at the examples :P00:46
exmanin Tizen platform...00:47
chouchouneI looked quickly yesterday but wasn't impressed00:47
Stskeepsthe example code is horrid, agreed00:47
rasterchouchoune: https://www.tizen.org/00:47
raster"...For those who use native code in their applications, the Tizen SDK will include a native development kit. We will open the entire Tizen software stack, from the core OS up through the core applications and polished user interfaces."00:47
chouchouneraster: yes, I've read that many times ;)00:48
exmanMaybe Linux foundation cannot use the chrominum in the Tizen.... But Other WebKit implemention doesn't have good JS debugging environment....00:48
chouchounethat's why I'm wondering what's the native SDK00:48
exmanI curious which WAC runtime will be used in Tizen.....00:48
Stskeepswe can look at the code when it comes00:49
Stskeeps:P00:49
mike_mexman, i guess one which is in development behind closed doors00:49
exmanby samsung ? intel ?00:49
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exmanmaybe not intel I think :-)00:50
exmanAnd another curious thing is.... Tizen will use Adobe flash or not...00:50
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chouchouneoh please, no Flash !00:51
exmanIf Tizen allow to use flash.... the Web runtime will contains the NPAPI stack....00:51
kyb3R:)00:51
mike_mexman, i guess that would be up to each Tizen adopter to figure out by themselves...00:51
chouchouneWAC thing is already enough for my heart ;)00:51
exmanmike_m, agree... but I can't wait until SDK release :-)00:52
chouchounebtw, as Novomok stated they will include Qt, I guess that as says mike_m, things should be at least easy to integrate in a product outside the reference platform00:53
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vtorriexman: join #edevelop for discussion about the EFL00:53
chouchouneand I'll buy next Novomok tablet ;)00:53
Stskeepsit's a linux stack, how difficult can it be to include qt :P00:53
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exmanvtorri, thanks!00:54
chouchouneStskeeps: mmmhhh, I mean, it can be a nightmare depending on the compliance things if you want to make a "tizen" derivate00:54
Stskeepschouchoune: let's see, as far as i can tell, it seems fairly open00:54
vtorriexman: np00:54
chouchouneyep00:54
chouchounelet's see, that's what I say since yesterday00:54
chouchounebut I can't way 'til 2012 ;)00:55
Stskeepscode should come before that..00:55
Stskeeps:P00:55
chouchouneyes00:55
chouchoune"let's see" :P00:55
Stskeepsi really hope they're not stupid and want to tackle native code in a bad way..00:55
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Stskeepsthe whole atom-only fiasco blew a lot of things00:55
vmlemon_Heh, Nokia are investigating Yet Another Linux Derivative, if http://thenextweb.com/mobile/2011/09/29/nokias-meltemi-project-tipped-to-bring-new-low-end-linux-os-to-the-next-billion is to be believed...00:55
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cedricvmlemon_: the name doesn't sounds good, what are people thinking this days ? are all the nice name already taken ?01:00
Paimencedric: they are all some sort of winds: maemo, harmattan, metlemi ...01:01
rasterchouchoune: there is a native sdk (well will be one available) and efl is waht samsung has used in limo4 and continues to use for tizen01:01
rasterthus you obviously can use it to make native apps01:01
rasteras thats how all the existing native apps are made01:01
vmlemon_cedric: Agreed. As with ISA and various other technologies, I doubt that they'll expose the internal name/codename to the general public.01:02
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chouchouneraster: but how open will it be in Tizen to integrate other development tools ?01:03
chouchounelike GTK, Qt01:03
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chouchouneand more importantly (that's not a problem to learn EFL), is there any project leading to integrate EFL and HTML5 like the SeedKit project from Gnome with GTK ?01:04
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vtorritheoretically, we can have an edje plugin in webkit01:06
vtorrihtml5 or not01:06
jstaniekvtorri: even if nice, this won't be native, just like QML-in-browser won't be native, right?01:06
jstanieknative for html5-based system01:07
jstaniekI mean.01:07
vtorrii think so, yes01:07
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jstaniekit would be funny to see effort to translate parts of edje or Quick to html5-only environment; still this will be nightmare to maintain and academic work I have been observing since the 1997's DHTML era ;)01:09
ckyghi guys... anyone knows what the language for the native apps will be?01:09
jstaniekLooking at logs and various comments, one is interesting: so many people ask about native APIs, not too many ask about the dedicated HTML5/WAC layer...01:11
jrydbergis this an effort to recreate webos?01:11
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cedricjstaniek: maybe doing the same trick gtk is doing to display itself in a browser would be easier to do01:12
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jstaniekcedric: it's one more layer, you know... and the engine is still GTK binary as a 'server' layer, right?01:14
cedricwell, it would be an evas engine as a server01:15
rasterchouchoune:  I know nothing of seedkit and frankly i know only the tech side of webkit - ie what webkit wants from EFL for it to do its job. the rest is not my area.01:15
rasterckyg: c or c++. its a full/proper linux system with proepr shared libs, shared lib versions etc. under the hood01:16
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rasterthe ui toolkit used is EFL01:16
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rasteremphasis is on apps in html5 because thats portable and much simpler than doing them in c/c++01:17
cedricraster: depend for whom, it will be much simpler for me to write an app in c on top of the efl than any web app :-)01:17
rastercedric:  we'd only need "html5 display" for efl if we want to do remote display of an app onto a machine where the only display system it has is a browser01:18
rastercedric:  true :)01:18
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jrydbergso, in what state is this project right now?01:20
rasterunreleased01:21
zuhpressreleased01:21
kyb3R:)01:21
jrydbergyeah01:21
rastervisible only to those working on it01:21
raster:)01:21
jrydbergand intel and samsung will develop it .... in the open?01:21
jrydbergor will they just release big chunks of code now and then?01:21
rastersome parts like EFL bits are already open and most changes are upstream01:21
jrydbergala android01:21
jrydbergraster: they'll use EFL as foundation for the UI?01:22
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chouchouneraster: ok, so we're not supposed to "work on it" as you say01:23
chouchounewhat an I doing here then ?01:23
chouchounebetter leave and fork MeeGo01:23
chouchouneand/or01:23
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discomfitorone would assume that "work on it" means contributing to an open source project which will be upstream for tizen01:25
mike_mchouchoune, i suggest writing a mail to general@lists.tizen.org and expression that opinion01:26
mike_mpeople who make decisions about these things probably won't be on IRC01:26
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chouchounediscomfitor: but we don't know what will be upstream01:35
chouchouneI'm ok with that philosophy too, but it's not possible either ;)01:35
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rasterjrydberg: i can sayanything i want with regards to how things will be made open... let me put it this way. i'm here at samsung because i believe and have seen and heard that the intentions are to do the right thing in being open in the real open way. but i'd rather say that "let time PROVE that to be correct" ie... that over the years tizen ears your respect for "playing by the spirit(and rules) of oss".01:40
discomfitorchouchoune: based on the fact that tizen is being produced by the limo foundation (gtk+efl) and will be compatible with meego (qt) I think that tells you quite a bit01:41
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rasterchouchoune: let the coming weeks/months show what tizen is really about by real actions. in the meantime. hang around and see01:41
discomfitornot to mention raster has been telling everyone who will listen his life story01:41
discomfitorwhich is also very informational01:42
rastermike_m: good call - though that list is already lurking with these kinds of mails already :)01:42
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mike_mraster, a +1 always helps to show that people care01:42
rastermike_m:  sure. :)01:42
mike_mit's ammunition that one can use to persuade one's boss of the right path (tm)01:43
chouchounemike_m: I've already contributed with my mails ;)01:43
chouchoune(Arnaud Delcasse)01:43
chouchounemail*01:44
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mike_mchouchoune, ok, great01:47
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* mike_m is a Samsung insider01:47
ckygraster, but they could at least use something like vala to get a better syntax01:47
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rasteryes and others would say to use lisp01:48
rasteror  python01:49
rasteror ruby01:49
rasterwe can go on01:49
mike_mor Javascript or Lua ...01:49
discomfitorplease do01:49
rasterif u want "nice syntax" and "ease of coding" use js/html501:49
rasterif u want native... c/c++01:49
cedrici love brainfuck, i want itto become the main scripting language !01:50
chouchounejs ... nice syntax ...01:50
rasteras long as what u have can call standard c library api calls - you are able to use whatever u can get to actually compile and run i guess01:50
chouchounemmmffff01:50
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TAsncedric, pfft, crazy.01:51
rusdevhello everybody01:52
cedrici am french, so i am crazy ! that's by definition !01:52
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TAsnI guess it's a given.01:52
ihyoyoungwhat's a french01:52
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TAsnihyoyoung, someone crazy from france01:52
* ibiris is interested in Tizen, works at Linaro01:52
TAsn(or just someone from france)01:52
swishychouchoune it is rather awesome and scarily powerful when used in anger well :)01:52
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rastercedric: damned straight you're crazy! and you're french! :)01:54
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discomfitorwait wait01:55
discomfitorcedric gets to work on tizen?01:55
ckygraster: ok you're probably right ...01:55
discomfitoreveryone leave now01:55
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rusdevDoes anybody know then tizen repo will be up?01:55
rasterdiscomfitor:  well indirectly.. if he works on efl... he.... works on tizen01:55
discomfitor:P01:55
discomfitorGASP01:55
swishyhehe01:55
discomfitorYOU GAVE AWAY INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT'S IN TIZEN????01:55
rasterrusdev: nup01:56
rasterdiscomfitor: i can say that as thats currently an obvious conclusion01:56
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rasterand i have the ok to make that calll atm01:56
discomfitoryou say that, but I bet the security check on the way out is going to be more invasive than usual!01:56
vtorricedric: i prefer the whitespace01:57
rasterdiscomfitor: mmmm gloves01:57
TAsnahh01:57
rasterthat reminds me01:58
rasterTAsn: i still havent figured if its possible to totally server-ize all text01:58
rasteri'm really in a quandry as to what to do01:58
rasterfor now i suspect i need ft2+fbidi+hb on both client and srvr01:58
TAsndepends on what and how you do. :P01:59
rasterand svr just does glyph production01:59
TAsnactually, I'd keep ft2 on the server01:59
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rasterwelll doing kerning+hb+... i dont see how it can be sensibly done via shm01:59
TAsnand just link to a shm01:59
TAsn*copy02:00
rasterunless i can get a complete mapping of , for example, every possible kerning pair and what the kerning is02:00
rasternot sure about what hb would need to expose02:00
TAsnnah, no way. :P02:00
discomfitorI remember the time that #edevelop moved to #tizen for the day to talk about migrating from svn to git02:00
discomfitorthat was a good day02:00
rasterwell then how can tyhe client do char placement?02:00
TAsnahh git!02:00
swishydiscomfitor hehe :)02:01
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TAsnraster, it's done in harfbuzz02:01
TAsnall the logic will be done in the server02:01
TAsnclient will just get02:01
TAsnimages, coords and etc02:01
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TAsnlets continue this @ #edevelop though02:02
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rasterTAsn: yes - but that means u have to send a string to server and wait for the reply (ctx switch) to query a string02:03
rastersomething textblock does a lot02:03
rasterTAsn:  sure02:04
raster:)02:04
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az_ordog_magaaloha02:29
az_ordog_magaanybody have more information from this project than the tizen.org press information?02:30
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anaZStskeeps: do you have the armv7el rpm binaries exported somewhere?02:33
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StskeepsanaZ: yes, hang on - but it might be a problem if you're on the old util-linux-ng / non-systemd02:47
Stskeepsmight have to adjust things a bit02:47
StskeepsanaZ: http://monster.tspre.org/~prjfetcher/mer/releases/0.20110920.1/builds/armv7l/packages/02:47
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Stskeepsignore the superflous arm hl dirs02:48
StskeepsanaZ: http://archive.meego.com/MeeGo/builds/1.1.99/1.1.99.2.20110412.6/repos/oss/armv7l/packages/ might also be useful in case my 1.3 based stuff isn't useful02:49
anaZok, thanks02:50
Stskeepsnp02:50
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Andy1210hey, tizen will rpm based?02:52
chouchouneAndy1210: who cares ? ;)02:53
Andy1210me :D02:53
Andy1210i prefer rpm based systems, like opensuse and fedora02:54
Andy1210debian already bored02:55
Andy1210Nokia's MeeGo (Harmattan) is debian core... sux02:55
cedricwe were waiting all the day for a troll on deb vs rpm !02:57
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cedrictime to take the pop corn, finally !02:57
Stskeepscedric: happened yesterday morning02:57
slainemy day is now complete02:57
* Stskeeps offers slaine beer02:57
cedricStskeeps: oh, i missed that :'(02:57
cedricwas probably sleeping02:57
slainewas getting worried Andy1210 wouldn't show02:57
cedricmy day is almost complete also02:57
* slaine takes a sip of Stskeeps beer02:58
anaZwe need to come up with a new packaging format, that would make it even more interesting02:58
rasterawesome02:58
rastercan we have a deb vs rpm flame fest?02:58
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rasteri need to eat my popcorn02:58
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StskeepsanaZ: i vote for a format based on the on-disk format of btrfs02:59
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Andy1210the apt and dpkg is my problem :D02:59
khertananaZ: i vote for zip format ...02:59
rasterStskeeps:  screw that. i say we make all pkgs sqlite db's02:59
khertanwithout any control files02:59
rastermuch better02:59
Stskeepsraster: :twitch:02:59
rasteru can query your pkg much better02:59
Andy1210or rich txt files XD03:00
anaZraster that is actually a good idea :-)03:00
mrussellraster: hi there :)03:00
mrussellraster, where do you stand btw ? :) deb or rpm ?03:00
anaZevery package is just a sqlite database03:00
rasteranaZ:  gah! god no!03:00
rastermrussell: JAR! :)03:00
slaineraster, sqlite is too heavy for mobile devices, we could use .tdb03:00
anaZhoney jar03:00
mrussellslaine, that's completely untrue03:00
Andy1210lol :D03:00
anaZ.tbd03:01
slainerofl03:01
Andy1210or use microsoft documents :D03:01
mrussellraster, seriously ;) - which is it? :P03:01
Andy1210docx03:01
anaZmaybe we should just change the suffix of tizen packages to .tbd to confuse the masses03:01
rastermrussell:  i seriously dont have a fave03:01
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mrussellraster, sitting on the fence eh :)03:01
rasterdeb has the "i have more packages and repositories than thou" advantage03:02
* mrussell stakes a DEB flag in the ground03:02
rasterif u go deb u technically can just add debian repos as a way of snarfing 1000's of ready-packaged stuff03:02
rasterfar more than rpm03:02
slainelol03:02
rasterand apt has for years "just worked"03:02
rasterBUT03:02
anaZmaybe EET03:02
rasterrpm is a lot cleaner and tighter03:02
mrussellapt/rpm is slow and horrible :)03:02
slaineYeah, I use rpm fusion on moblin03:02
cedricnah msi for the world !03:02
slaine'cause it's just fedora03:02
rasteri really detest debian's multi file+script thing03:03
rasteri like spec files03:03
rasterand i ADORE rpm -ta03:03
khertanbut apt didn't have html5 api03:03
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rasterrpm -ta is like gods gift to man03:03
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rasterthere.. built into rpm03:03
anaZok, now we are talking about this again03:03
rasterout of the box03:03
Andy1210my OS is OpenSuse03:03
anaZgeez03:03
* raster eats some popcorn and waits for the flames to fly now03:03
Stskeepsthe thing is that in the big picture, it really doesn't matter03:03
Stskeeps:P03:03
khertanJS have zip library ... so we should use a zip package format03:03
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khertan;)03:04
slaineI need some coffee after that beer Stskeeps03:04
* anaZ misses the Spicy Chicken dish at "honest kitchen"03:04
cedricraster: you are throwing some kerosen over the place03:04
slaineanaZ: Is that owned by honest john, car salesman ?03:04
rasterkhertan:  there is a native development system03:05
rastercompiler, libraries.. headers03:05
rasteru dont need everything in js+html03:05
khertanraster: i didn't see it yet03:05
rastercedric:  i know. i was hoping to roast my popcorn03:05
raster:)03:05
Stskeepsraster: what i kind of ponder is the compliance story of that part.. google's native client comes into mind03:05
khertanthey could talk about a thing to engine a js runtime to build pseudo native code03:05
khertanuntil i didn't see it, i ll not believe them03:06
rasterkhertan:  then why do u believe the html5 story?03:07
rasteror ay of it03:07
rasterany03:07
raster:)03:07
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rasterStskeeps: compliance in what way?03:08
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rasterwhy does the world suddenly think that EVERYTHING has to now become something inside a browser?03:08
rastersome things - maybe many simple thgins work well there maybe03:08
Stskeepsraster: well. the moment you talk about native sdk, as in, anything that translates into binaries will lead to questions about 'can this native code then run elsewhere than this specific os.. etc'03:08
rasterbut to make a browser u need a native api to build it with03:08
Stskeepsor it's like a native sdk for device builders03:09
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khertanraster: i didn't believe the html5 story too, will be a huge fail if it s really that03:09
rasterStskeeps:  native as in its just a process u launch like u launch on your desktop03:09
rasterfor making apps03:09
rasterif, itzen is all open as tizen.org says it is meant to become... then anyone can build their own if they want03:09
Andy1210i think works like dalvik vm in android03:09
Stskeepsraster: itzen actually sonds like a better name than tizen..03:10
Stskeeps:P03:10
rasterhahahaha03:10
rasteror titzen?03:10
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captainiglooi just hope there will be no aegis like security platform in devices supported by tizen03:11
rastergod i'm so going to make a dogs breakfast of this name03:11
rasterme and my typos03:11
* raster slaps himself03:11
Andy1210raster lol, titzen XD i like it03:11
ph0bwhat about zentits ?03:11
Stskeepsraster: NSFW, but: http://www.titzenbeer.com/03:11
* raster is at work and doesnt want to offend too many koreans... or other crazy weigugin around03:12
rasterph0b: thats not able tobe written off as a typo03:12
raster:)03:12
Andy1210https://events.linuxfoundation.org/events/linuxcon-europe/ - Jim Zemlin looks like Michael J. Fox :D :D03:12
cedric:-D03:12
cedriccaptainigloo: well, the aegis mode make senses when you are distributing apps to many people and want to protect them a little03:13
cedricbut it should be deadly trivial to turn a device in dev mode and disable it03:13
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Dokugogagojiuhm...excepting idle-ing is there an actual discussion? :P03:18
khertandeb/rpm flamewars03:18
khertanbut else you can idle too03:19
StskeepsDokugogagoji: yes, we're discussing arm bootstrapping03:19
Stskeeps:P03:19
Dokugogagojikhertan, oh well, there are everywhere03:20
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rasterdb vs rpm flamewars are awesome03:21
rasterthey warm my popcorn and roast my marshmallows03:21
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Dokugogagojiwell, the first time I have followed the mailing list of Meego, it started...with a deb/rpm war, what a case03:22
* slaine wonders how many #edevelop folks are in here too03:22
Dokugogagojiwell..Maemo debist vs Moblin rpms03:22
captainigloocedric: yep agree03:22
Dokugogagojioh hi raster...I think I know you :P03:23
rasterslaine: you could count them... :)03:24
rasterDokugogagoji:  :-P~03:24
raster:)03:24
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captainiglooslaine: i'm wondering why03:26
slaineI just recognize a few nicks03:27
* araujo notices raster trying to start the db/rpm flamewar 03:27
vtorrireally ?03:28
rusdevhttp://img41.imageshack.us/img41/3070/tizen.jpg03:28
slainerofl03:28
Dokugogagojirusdev, ahah nice one03:29
khertannow look for tizen in google image  search ... it was posted everywhere :)03:29
Dokugogagojiwell, what do you think? Will be Tizen the killer of Bada as application layer or the killer of LimoOS as "low budged widget-oriented" platform in the eyes of Samsung? The world is becoming too tight...03:31
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mrussellraster, haha titzen :)03:31
rasterjust a typo03:32
raster:)03:32
mrussellraster, been working you hard over there have they? :P03:32
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slainefreudian slip perhaps03:32
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rastermrussell: aye. needeth more sleeps03:34
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mdaveyso other than Intel and Samsung, are any other companies announcing they will back Tizen?03:35
Stskeepsmdavey: there was an announcement by a bunch of finnish consultancy companies today as well03:36
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slaineAren't the entire LiMo foundation behind it, not just Samsung ?03:36
rusdevDokugogagoji: might be titzen will be the killer of Intel and Samsung money?03:36
mdaveyslaine: LiMo yes, but I haven't seen anything from the individual backers of LiMo saying the same.03:37
mdaveyStskeeps: do you have a link?03:37
rasteri guess time will tell03:37
Stskeepsmdavey: http://nomovok.com/news/57/73/Nordic-System-Integrators-Welcome-Open-Source-Initiative-Tizen03:37
rastertechnically if u are a limo memmebr u probably intent to deliver a limo compliant handset03:38
rasterand i guess that means tizen now03:38
rasteras such limo has a fair few members03:38
rasteror well u are also a telco03:38
rastertheres also wac03:38
rasterwhich is also a bunch of telcos03:38
rasterbacking wac03:39
rasterwhich is what the html5 thing being talked about is03:39
slaineI wonder if LiMo as a foundation had to consult it's members for agreement on this direction. Not sure how it's governed. they've been very quiet as a group03:39
mdaveyStskeeps: thanks03:39
slaineYeah, not looked it up yet, what is WAC, never heard of it before03:39
slaineWeb Application CounterAttack ??03:39
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mdaveyslaine: http://www.wacapps.net/03:41
mdaveyits a web development environment / application framework basically03:41
Dokugogagoji...I hope WAC web tech note will be better than the old ones...they seemed in a hurry when doing them...03:42
Dokugogagojiniqt, italian, I suppose03:43
niqtyes03:43
khertanWork Arround Crash03:44
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khertanTizen SDK : http://t.co/mSaUhuCm04:02
ihyoyoungwtf04:05
ihyoyoung-_-;04:05
ihyoyoungit's just a photoshoped image04:05
Termanalol04:05
Termanakhertan, victim 1 doesn't get the joke04:05
khertan:)04:06
khertanihyoyoung: thx for congratulating me for my photoshop talent ... but to be honest it s worse than that ... i use MS Paint :)04:06
anaZfail04:07
ihyoyoungkhertan: cool04:07
ihyoyoungkhertan: i think your painting skill is better than joke04:08
ihyoyounghehe04:08
khertan:)04:09
ihyoyoungbefore got a link , i was serious about it. but i'm not offensive. funny04:09
khertanyou know, i'm a dev, so my painting and graphic level are about the same that a one year aged kid04:11
khertanand as a dev, i consider design and graphic useless until a keyboard and a cmd line is available :)04:11
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borcohi04:38
Paimenhello04:39
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tcpsynMorning05:04
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Stskeepsmorn05:04
araujomorning05:06
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zuhraster: Since you know EFL and what webkit requires from EFL, what's the multimedia situation with that? Does EFL have something of its own or is it using some existing framework (eg. GStreamer)?05:34
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rasteremotion05:34
rastertho it doesnt re-invent the wheel05:35
rasterit just layers on top of video modules05:35
rastergstremer is one05:35
rastervlc is another05:35
rasterxine is another05:35
rasteriut has 3 of them already05:35
rasterits massively simpelr to use05:35
zuhright, so the usual story then.05:35
rasterand gives you video objects u can just fade in, out rotate, stick objects/widgets on top05:35
rasterstick video obj into another widget05:35
rasteretc.05:36
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zuhHmm, http://trac.webkit.org/wiki/EFLWebKit says "Most of HTML5 features (video is missing)", and I don't see a MediaPlayer implemented for efl...05:40
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borcowhile latest qt is availble on win & linux, latest efl & friends must be built from sources. i, for one, would be more confident if i could dld an up-to-date sdk, that installs without issues in my /home/borco/local and that i can simply use to link and run apps developed with efl. otherwise efl would remain, for me, just an UI for tizen, a much less interesting solution than qt05:41
borcoraster: any plans for such an sdk?05:42
borcoraster: assuming tizen will use efl, that is05:42
rasterzuh: http://yourpaste.net/9291/05:42
rastera simple (yet complete) video playback app05:42
rastercontrols, some fancy fading in and out of overlayed controls etc.05:43
borcoraster: scratch that. regardless of efl and tizen ties.05:43
rasterpretyt much emplayer in 370 lines of c or so05:43
rasterborco: ALl latest of EVERYTHING05:43
rasterqt included has to come from git/svn05:43
rasteru think latest RELEASEd qt is the LATESt qt?05:44
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rasterlatest released EFL is 1.0.105:44
borcoraster: close enough.05:44
borcoraster: 1.0.0 in fedora1505:44
rasterits available as packages for debian, fedora, and several other distros05:44
borcoraster: really?05:44
mrussellraster, so EFL is _the_ toolkit for the new platform then?05:44
raster1.1 is the next release for most libs05:44
borcoraster: i doubt that\05:44
rasternot out yet05:44
rastervery much like gtk, qt and every other lib on the planet05:45
borcoraster: the link to fedora packages takes me to an empty dir05:45
rasterthe latest release and packaged ver is behind development by weeks or months05:45
borcoraster: and did it so 3-4 months ago05:45
rasterand releases happen every few months - maybe once a year05:45
rasterso of coruse "svn" is latest05:45
rasterand if u want "the latest stuff" u have to go there05:45
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rasterhttp://packages.debian.org/source/sid/evas05:46
borcoraster: just a couple of days ago i've read an article saying something like: if you want to try e17, you better install a distro using it... not very encouraging05:46
borcoraster: i'm a fedora guy these days05:46
slainee17 != efl05:47
vtorriborco: jfyi, i'm providing win installers of the EFL05:47
slaineThe API has been reasonably stable too05:47
borcovtorri: will they work with wine? :P05:47
rastersomeone was doing fedora pkgs05:48
slaineI wrote a UI for an STB project back in 2007. Still perfectly functional (latest version compiled against Fedora 14's packages)05:48
borcoraster: empty dir now05:48
rasteri dont really keep up with the 2893 distributions out there and whatever people package it for05:48
rastergentoo and arch package efl too05:48
borcohttp://sps.nus.edu.sg/~didierbe/05:48
borcoaccording to e17 page05:48
borcogentoo is a source distro05:48
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slaineborco: probably best to take this to #edevelop anyways05:49
borcoit's normal to have those packages05:49
borcothe main concern i have is that i have to learn something new, only for tizen05:49
borcoefl is not mainstream on desktop05:49
borcowhy not learn java or objective-c and forget all this brouhaha05:50
rasterbut tizen isnt using efl because of mainstream linux desktop us05:50
rasteruse05:50
rasterefl manages to work very smoothly and nicely and handles what is thrown at it on devices with arm's and touchscreens05:51
vtorriborco: the works on win xp05:51
rasterand it's been doing that for years now05:51
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chouchouneraster: Qt isn't ?05:51
vtorrithey work*05:51
* Stskeeps makes a note that the toolkit, packaging, or even the horoscope of the project leaders doesn't matter05:52
Stskeepsthe html5 + wac part matters05:52
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chouchouneI mean, if we have 2 choices working well, why wouldn't we choose the most cross platform one ?05:52
rasterchouchoune: no.05:52
* chouchoune starting a Qt vs. EFL troll, sorry :/05:52
borcohey, i'm just human - i can't learn 10 toolkits a year.05:53
Stskeepsyou're not supposed to, the app story is html505:53
Stskeeps:P05:53
rasterregardless05:53
rasterthink logically05:53
* Stskeeps doesn't plan on learning efl, on the simple grounds i want to be ignorant when speaking to raster ;)05:53
rasterqt is perceived as nokia owned technology05:54
rasternokia just dumped and left meego05:54
rasterdo u really think everyone is all keen to align themselevs with someoen that just dumped them05:54
rasterforget technical args?05:54
rasterdont ask me what the actual decision reasosn are - i dont know05:54
borcoif the platform is not attractive to me, i will simply continue developing with what i know, untill elop kills completely the symbian and wait for the next mobile open source reboot from scratch05:54
rasterborco: then do that.05:55
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khertanefl is linked to e17 ... which never reach stable release, isn't it ...05:55
rasterkhertan:  efl was built in order to build e1705:55
rastersomewhere along the way we got sucked inot making efl as a toolkit for everyone05:56
khertanraster: yeah i know05:56
rasterand e17 took a back seat05:56
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borcoraster: what i wanted to say, but it looks like few undestood, is that it would be much more palatable for devs to have something that can be used for more than 2-3 phones05:56
rasterand efl itself has grown to be 20x as much as e17 needed to release05:56
rasterin order to do something for everyone05:56
khertanraster: i know05:56
rasterborco: i guess all the iphone developers were silyl as for years they worked on an api that coould be used for 1 phone only05:57
raster:)05:57
Stskeepswhy are we discussing toolkits in the first place? :P05:57
khertanbut as qt is linked to nokia, efl in mind spirit is linked to e1705:57
jonnorStskeeps: do you want to swith to editors? :)05:57
khertanStskeeps: because there is nothing else to do05:57
rasterStskeeps:  well tizen does have a native sdk and api05:57
* Stskeeps does know that efl is probably the vehicle for whatever html5 runtime, but besides that05:57
borcoraster: no, it worked for them. but not sure how the same argument worked for bada.05:57
rasterthe ui and related stuff is from efl land05:57
borcoraster: samsung is not apple.05:57
khertanso i ve try ACE Editor (a html/JS editor) in an n950 and it s slow as hell05:57
Stskeepsraster: yes, i know, but it screws up the app developer story a bit too much to talk about it early :)05:58
rasterborco:  then android api was silly. for a while it was only on 1-3 phones05:58
rasterborco:  people come up with the same tired naysayer arguments05:58
borcoraster: android uses java.05:58
khertanborco: but you can use python too05:58
rasterthe same arguments that apply to every single other os or api that became big etc.05:58
rasterborco:  java (in the android world) is just the lang05:58
rasterlike c is05:58
rasterthe API is android05:59
jonnorborco: no, but that is irrelevant. The major attraction of a platform is not the toolkit, is the number of users you can deploy to.05:59
rasterStskeeps: yes and no. as i've seen here and in many places theres a world of people going "write in html5? hell no!"05:59
Stskeepsraster: of course05:59
rasterso u screw developers who dont want to port to a whole new lang (js) from what is probably c/c++ that they have06:00
Stskeepsraster: but gtk,efl,qt,motif,whatever doesn't help either06:00
rasterif they are just writing a bunch of fart apps06:00
Stskeepspeople will always complain ;)06:00
rasterthen they dont have to worry06:00
raster:)06:00
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rasterStskeeps:  oh god i know. thats what i dont much care06:00
Stskeepsall i'm (personally) about is the good, solid, mobile core06:00
khertanStskeeps:  yep ... there is always complain ... but ... hum ...06:00
Stskeepsthe UI i would probably throwaway anyway for my interactive busstop06:00
borcoraster: yeah, you probably have a point. my mobile app is opensource and given for free. i will probably not bother to port it on html5. it was developed for my needs and works fine on n900, n950 and symbian.06:01
rasterif u are hell bent on not doing js+html, and want native (c/c++) then there is an api there to get u tools and help in building ui's (and other libs and apis to do a myriad of other things too)06:01
Stskeepsraster: :nod:06:01
Stskeepsraster: my worry is just we'll end up in a binary compatibility nightmare again06:01
Stskeepsfor those that do native06:01
khertanraster: there is already a tool for building ui for tizen ... it s nammed frontpage06:01
rasterStskeeps: same problpem for those that do native on android06:02
almehdiAnyone know how gnu the underlaying things will be.. and things like boot loader and stuff. Or is this to early ask right now?06:02
nand_raster: where are the apis? you say there are native apis.06:02
Stskeepsraster: yes06:02
borcowhat i suspect is that, with all this fixation on html5, you will have a completely different developer profile on tizen than you did with maemo/meego.06:02
rasteror all peolpe on iphone/pod/pad06:02
Stskeepsraster: frankly, i kind of like the LLVM approach that native client people use06:02
rasternand_: some of them are EFL06:02
rasterall open and public06:02
rasterdocumented06:02
Stskeepsraster: then it doesn't matter ARM, X86, MIPS..06:02
rasterhttp://www.enlightenment.org/p.php?p=docs06:02
nand_raster: please give me the link of native apis for tizen, maybe I can learn well in advance...06:03
rastercant06:03
rasteri can give u EFL06:03
raster(docs generated daily from svn)06:03
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rasteralmehdi:  you'll see when its released06:03
rasteras per tizen.org announce06:03
almehdii guessed that ;)06:04
nand_where is the declaration that EFL libs are THE apis? I wouldn't want to waste my time again after bada is abandoned.06:04
rasterwho said bada is abandoned?06:04
chouchouneFYI, from our perspective we see this as an extension to current MeeGo, and we'll continue supporting Qt as well. The big thing here is HTML5 apps that would be an addition to native ones.06:04
chouchouneoups06:04
chouchounesorry06:04
nand_it's going to be opensourced and merged with tizen...06:04
nand_raster: ^^06:05
chouchounewas not intended to be a source of troll ;)06:05
rasternand_: considering i'm principal engineer at samsung mobile r&d here in korea... and i kind of am lead dev on EFL... and have been working at and with samsung now for almost 3 years on EFL... you'll have to take my word for it :)06:05
chouchounejust messed up with the mouse06:05
nand_raster: can the crowd expect a blog from you?06:06
rasteri dont have a lot to say at the moment06:06
rasternothing that hasnt been said before06:06
nand_please do not repead the mistake of bada, where there was NO message about multimonth delays of SDK for 1.206:06
nand_*repeat06:06
rasteri know nothing of what bada did, is doing etc. etc.06:07
rastertizen';s timetable has been announced06:07
nand_raster: can you confirm in Q1 2012 I can download SDK?06:08
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rasternand_: did you read tizen.org?06:08
nand_and, more importantly, will it be more open than what you criticize in meego? e.g. Qt SDK?06:08
rasteri never criticized meego openness06:09
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rasteror qt sdk06:09
raster?06:09
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tcpsynlies, all likes. You said qt and meego had a fat momma.06:09
tcpsynI heard it all06:09
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rastertcpsyn: actually a fat gandmomma! :)06:10
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chouchouneraster: do you hire people at Samsung to work on Tizen ? ;)06:10
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rasterof course06:11
rasterhow else would there be anyone then to work on it unless people were (at some point) hired06:11
raster:)06:11
nand_raster: you said Nokia grabbed the toys back and abandoned you and poor developers, that sounded ridiculous so I am asking, what better is in the way, scheduled for Q106:11
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chouchouneraster: I mean, hire to increase your staff, actually06:12
rasternand_:  eh? didn't abandon me - i wasnt even  doing qt or meego06:12
nand_I see no change in the meego SDK licensing and even can see they are accepting patches and Creator kind of works06:12
chouchouneyou could just continue with your actual staff ;)06:12
rasternokia along with intel announced the merge of maemo+moblin last feb as meego06:12
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tabeholy...06:12
rasterthen they dumped meego basically saying they wont be using it as their primary platform06:12
rasterin fact elop is quoted to say - even if the n9 is a roaring success it wont change their plan06:13
rasterthe other major partner in meego left.06:13
nand_so they used maemo harmattan, right? names, names, just names06:13
rasteri never said anything about openness06:13
nand_Ok, now it's clear, so you/Samsung wanted nokia to still work on meego then you'd jump in?06:14
augustltizen.org is sparse of information. Is tizen a continuation of Moblin/Maemo? Or is it a new effort?06:14
jonnorraster: you implied it when you said that Qt is percieved to be Nokia property06:14
rasterand if you look at quotes from intel about the time nokia left.. they were unhappy about it06:14
rasterno i never said that06:14
rasteri enevr even implied that06:14
rasterwhat i said was that qt is SEEN as a nokia tech06:14
nand_if not why to cry about them dumping the project (noone has idea if intel was good partner or not, especially looking at Nokia as big ARM user)06:14
rasterperception06:14
tcpsynI dont see how this conversation is in any way productive.06:14
rasterthey wroekd very hard to make that the case06:15
rasterand the perception is meego == qt06:15
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rasterso if nokia - who abandoned the partnership, are the perceived owner of the "meego tech" (qt)06:15
nand_Ok, to be practical, is EFL open technology?06:16
nand_I have seen now on a page, there's info that samsung is involved. Any other big party in the game?06:16
pabs3the word "open" is completely meaningless, be more specific06:16
khertannand_: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enlightenment_Foundation_Libraries06:16
tabeI think they should make the platform awesome.. just sayin06:16
nand_open == project with some kind of open governance, not just open source06:17
rasterthen... isnt it logical that those trying to start a new os work which is a merge of samsungs existing linux os (limo 4/slp) and intels work on meego.. it gets a new name and it may not include stuff left over from nokia?06:17
nand_khertan: thanks for the link, there is only Samsung mentioned.06:17
khertani see also free06:17
rasternand_: EFL is the set of lbis from the enlightenment project06:17
khertannand_: but efl isn't tizen06:18
rasterenlightenment has been around long before linux was a twinkle in the eyes of samsung.. or even intel06:18
nand_so is it true that EFL==Samsung? I use raster's logic applied to his project.06:18
rasterno06:18
erronIm pretty sure they should just make the platform perform the best it can witht he technology available when it's released, not current gen tech.06:18
khertanat least there was none official statment about tizen using efl06:18
nand_raster: so do Qt06:18
nand_Trolltech if I remember correctly06:18
rasterqt copyright is still owned by a single entity last i checked06:18
rasterand last i knew. that was nokia06:18
rasterefl is not copyrighted to a single entity06:19
rasterits like the kernel06:19
rastermany copyright holders06:19
rasterits open06:19
rasterall src open06:19
rasteralways has been06:19
borcofrom what i see, nokia intends to abandon qt. they move qt to open governance, they will use it only for 2-3 more years untill they pull the plug from symbian. so how is this seen as nokia?06:19
arfollfree in france use EFL in STBs already i believe06:19
nand_copyrights are not needed for GPL-compliant components, otherwise Qt wouldnt be (L)GPL, yes?06:19
nand_i.e. passing copyrights, I mean06:19
rasterwell since the first time i got it off my hard disk and onto the internet for the first time06:19
tabeerron06:19
errontabe06:19
tabeit's a FACT06:19
tabeyou can't argue that06:19
erronOpen isn't open. FACT06:20
erronRight, sammy?06:20
w00traster: wrong06:20
tabeWRONG, Black bear06:20
w00tQt does not have copyright assignment06:20
erronw00t, i love your website!06:20
rasterw00t: thats new06:20
tabelmao erron06:20
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w00traster: 'new' as of about 2009, iirc06:20
borcoyep, qt is not developed by canonical06:20
jonnorw00t: it does require copyright agreement. In practical terms, there is not much of a distinction06:20
w00tjonnor: it requires copyright license, true: you can't take back the rights you give, and you do grant digia (nowdays) the rights to commercialise your work06:21
w00tbut you still own that work06:21
rasterw00t: from the qt copyright06:21
rasterCopyright:06:21
raster    © 2008-2009 Nokia Corporation and/or its subsidiary(-ies).06:21
raster    © 1994-2008 Trolltech ASA.06:21
borcoeven then, if it's gpl, you can continue developing using the latest (l)gpl version.06:21
tabelol @ Trolltech06:21
rasterzero other copyright holder mentions06:21
almehdiI do not see it strange that Samsung and Intel are going with EFL. Same reason why Meego was QT. Samsung have worked earlier with EFL and want's to continue with that. However i don't agree on the notion that QT are seen as Nokia tech.06:21
erronTrolltech?06:21
tabelmao06:22
nand_so what? there is (C) Samsung in EFL, right? and webkit or so06:22
jonnorraster: the names in a header means nothing legally06:22
borcoraster: so what does it matter? isn't it (l)gpl?06:22
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w00traster: copyright headers mean nothing, I'm talking about the actual agreement you "sign" when you contribute06:22
augustlTrolltech is norwegian ;) http://no.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll06:22
w00traster: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2009/05/11/qt-public-repository-launched/06:22
erronhave you guys considered samsung is just broadening thier base? I mean, they wont just dump Android. And they are making WP7 phones.06:22
rasterw00t: last i checked - until maybe the open governance thing, trolltech required you grant copyright (assign to trolltech) to get a patch into qt06:22
w00t"Our goal with the new site is to make this process as simple and welcoming as possible, and that’s why we will no longer ask for copyright assignment. Instead we ask contributors to grant Qt Software a non-exclusive right to re-use and incorporate the code as a part of Qt, handled by a one-time online click-through the first time you submit code for inclusion in Qt."06:23
nand_didnt nokia pay for efl development, raster?06:23
tabeI think they should hire Steve Jobs to head Tizen... #justsayin06:23
rasterand same with trolltech when owned by nokia06:23
augustlw00t: where's that from?06:23
nand_so it has copyrights there too06:23
rasternand_: no.06:23
w00traster: I know what I'm talking about when it comes to Qt, just like hopefully you do when it comes to EFL ;)06:23
w00taugustl: the link I pasted in my line before it06:23
augustlw00t: tnx06:23
jonnorYou do not grant them the copyright. You just grant them the right to do whatever they want with it. Again, little practical difference.06:23
rasterbro this isnt a technical issue - i said its PERCEIVED.. its a political and marketing football. if you want to discuss it in the view of technicals - then you just are using the wrong midnset06:24
nand_yes, it's easy to ask on #meego or #qt that assignments are not needed for qt, otherwise it would be not possible to contribute in some countries06:24
borcoraster: even if you agree to copyright assignment, as long as it is gpl, it doesn't matter. they will be able to use it in the closed version, but you can take at any point the gpl version and continue with it. or am i mistaken?06:25
w00tborco: correct06:25
rasterw00t:  aah more copyrights later on. some specific people and files mentioned06:25
w00tborco: they cannot retrospectively relicense/close the released Qt code06:25
nand_You guys _form_ the perception from the day zero, but let's be honest to each other as much as possible, I've seen many intelligent people WATCHING what tizen is, now.06:25
w00traster: if you're reading the documentation's license info, it's very out of date06:25
rasterw00t:  ok. so mid 2009 they got rid of assignment06:26
jonnorborco: you are not mistaken. But one company has the monopoly on non-GPL version of the code. Which puts them in a position where they can compete much more effectively than any other party, if there were to be a fork.06:26
rasterw00t:  yes. reading copyright installed along with qt 4.506:26
chouchounejonnor: actually, they sold that to Digia I guess06:27
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nand_jonnor: if the libs are LGPL, then the monopoly is only meritocracy06:27
borcojonnor: how comes? they will be able to produce a closed version in parallel with the open one. like oracle did with openoffice, right?06:27
jonnorchouchoune: yes, they also have a right to sell it.06:27
rasterborco:  with copyright assignment u never lose rights on the original u can always make that patch available as u see fit.06:27
nand_jonnor: qt is 100% LGPL, right?06:27
w00tnand_: yes06:27
rasterbut u have given someone else the right to take your code and never release it as open source06:27
almehdiGuys.. don't blame Raster.. he are just doing his job. The percieved thing is wrong though. Samsung want to continue their work on EFL as they have invested in that... so Intel said cool let's do so.06:27
rasterie unlike LGPL06:27
w00t(or GPL, or "licensed by nokia's terms")06:27
w00tit's multi-license06:27
jonnorborco: yes, but only Nokia (now Digia maybe ) can do that. Ergo monopoly06:28
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borcoraster: problem is moot, right? as confirmed by others, there is no need for that in qt. and you can contribute directly to qt, or to your branch06:28
tcpsyncan we talk about tizen? What is it, what do we want it to ve, where's the code, and lets start hacking...06:28
tcpsyns/ve/be06:28
jonnornand_: the monopoly is only meritocracy?06:28
nand_jonnor: they would effectively fork if they want to close the code. qt is in quite a few projects these days.06:28
borcoyou could branch qt, add your patches to it and keep it in sync with the master06:28
* raster sighs06:29
rasteralmehdi:  tnx06:29
erron+1 tcpsyn06:29
nand_jonnor: should be: what is perceived as 'monopoly of N.' is in fact meritocracy after opengovernance started06:29
tcpsynall this licencing babble is infuriating.06:29
rasteri'm just trying to make the point - maybe there is more to decisions to use EFL and not qt other than pure licenses06:29
jonnornand_: open governance is so far just talk06:29
erronis this #tizen or #copyrightknowledgepissingcompetition06:29
w00tjonnor: there is actually a date now06:30
rasterits a waste of time to nit pick over it06:30
tcpsynit's open or it's not. which is it.06:30
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nand_jonnor: without talk you have no structures, without structures you have no open project.06:30
jonnortcpsyn: you have a delightfully simple view of the world. Shall we bring patents into this? :)06:30
borcoi agree. this qt stuff looks more like some kids from intel got pissed that nokia kids don't want to play with them any longer and now are smashing their own toys, just to forget the whole matter.06:30
rasterif your point is "qt is open" - EFL is just as open. so dont worry. it's open. it's been open for a very long time06:31
cedricnand_: issue is that opengovernance is not yet started06:31
w00tjonnor: http://labs.qt.nokia.com/2011/09/12/qt-project/06:31
cedricand qt is still in the hand of nokia mostly06:31
nand_it's close06:31
tcpsynjonnor: god no. how bout bringing a git tree into this.06:31
borcoerron: i for one, just want to understand why all this happened06:31
borcoerron: so that i am prepared next time06:31
rasteru wont ever hear all the details as to why06:31
erronborco: Money06:32
jonnornand_: my point is that it is _only_ talk. open governance is a goal, a vision06:32
tabeprepared?06:32
nand_tcpsyn: you can hack too in advance; but you if dont care about licensing and openess06:32
cedricso building a parternship month ago with someone else that implies using a technologie with someone that screwed you is really a no go06:32
rasteri'm jsut trying to let you know that people consider many different things. they dont just look at a license.06:32
* pabs3 never understood wtf "open governance" means06:32
jonnorHopefully it will be realized :) Untill it is, I will not claim it as something that exists.06:32
borcotabe: yes, next year, when the next platform is announced ;-)06:32
tcpsynnand_: I don't, and it already sounds poisoned.06:32
w00tpabs3: in the context of Qt, it means that anyone can participate equally in development, companies and individuals, and gain equal rights to push code06:32
cedricpabs3: that's when company take over meritocratie and add some bureaucratie to a open source project ithink :-)06:32
nand_jonnor: isnt the vision and goal presented and discussed months ago already, probably in Berlin some months ago?06:32
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almehdiborco: I don't think this has so much to do with Intel as Samsung. Intel has no intrest in what language is used. Samsung does. And Intel wants a partner that makes devices. So they said sure let's do this.06:34
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almehdiborco: Pretty much the same way Meego decided on QT06:34
almehdiborco: as that was the choice of Nokia06:35
jonnornand_: sure. They are starting to execute on it now.06:35
tcpsynI have an idea... howabout instead of android/ios competition, the hardware manufacturers make hardware and let us decide on the OS?06:35
tcpsynToo logical?06:35
pabs3lol06:35
borcoalmehdi: with such decisions, most devels will have to be on payroll...06:36
khertantcpsyn: you mean llike on desktop pc ?06:36
borcoalmehdi: oh, i forgot the fart app devels...06:36
nand_Summing up, it would be cool to see software company joining tizen too (development), what do you think? We can see two hardware vendors for now.06:36
tcpsynkhertan: I mean exactly like a desktop pc.06:36
cedrictcpsyn: you mean, like choosing windows for the desktop pc ?06:36
tcpsynor linux06:36
tcpsynor osx06:37
nand_and efl in particular as it needs more power06:37
tcpsynor os/206:37
tcpsynjust gimme hardware06:37
cedricwell, that only target geek06:37
khertantcpsyn: you ll be forced to bought windows in few time in france with new pc06:37
cedric99% of the desktop is windows06:37
chouchounenand_: you have some (Novomok for example ?)06:37
khertantcpsyn: so didn't expect that on mobile06:37
tcpsynsure. Sell the phone with tizen or meego, or android or wp7, I don't care.06:37
borcoalmehdi: qt at least was used by kde. quite a big userbase...06:37
tcpsynas long as I can install what I want for an OS over it06:37
rasternand_: EFL is actually auite popular in franch already - several companies use it and give back to it.06:37
nand_Novomok is close to fork tizen, right? I mean the Qt/Tizen port...06:37
tcpsynI'll pay06:37
rasternand_: ask cedric. he knows a lot about that06:38
tcpsynand so will everyone else I know06:38
khertantcpsyn: you don't care, but manufacturer when to get revenue with application market06:38
chouchouneraster: franch ? France ?06:38
tcpsynthen this is another platform doomed to fail, and it makes me sad.06:38
rastertcpsyn:  reality is that that isnt possible for many reasons :(06:38
* pabs3 wonders how long till UEFI secure boot comes to ARM06:38
tcpsynBut good luck with it.06:38
rasterchouchoune: sorry france. typo :)06:38
chouchouneraster: who ?06:38
chouchounemaybe Free ?06:38
cedrictcpsyn: that will not make it to the masses, nor to most developper, only a few geek, what company would make such a plan ?06:38
chouchounebut others ?06:38
khertanraster: the typo was on franch :)06:38
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almehdiborco: try to understand what i meant... Neither Intel or Samsung has any major intrest in QT. Samsung has been using EFL before so they will continue on that path.06:39
bzhbraster: I'm reading that efl canvas, evas, is using a scene graph. Is it working in a similar way than QML scenegraph ? Is the HTML5 stuff going to be render in Tizen using this scene graph ?06:39
rasterpabs3:  technically all arm's dont even have uefi. they have no "bios". everything has to be specifically created for that arm by the OEM06:39
rasterbootloader and up06:39
cedricchouchoune: ordissimo and zodiac aerospace06:39
tcpsyncedric: what are you talking about, hp, dell, toshiba, asus.. their laptops seem to make it to market just fine.06:39
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rasterand at that point they are making a product06:39
cedricalso calaos06:39
tcpsyncedric: and I can install whatever OS I want on them06:39
rasterif u want devices that are just empty hardware shells to put linux on - lots of people sell arm dev boards06:39
khertancedric: ordissimo ... haha06:39
nand_almehdi: interesting, what are efl products of samsung? Probably regional so I have no idea...06:39
cedricyes, but the os you are installing is using by no one else06:39
pabs3raster: yeah, I have heard that there are plans standardise on it06:39
chouchounecedric: calaos like ST-Ericsson partners for Snowball ?06:39
kavachaalmehdi: from what I can see Intel wanted rid of Qt06:39
tcpsynraster: that's exactly what I want06:40
rasterkhertan:  french :)06:40
borcoborco: yeah, i get it. it's going to be another platform. not an open source one.06:40
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khertanraster: ;)06:40
almehdinand_: Limo06:40
cedricchouchoune: gni ? it's a compagny doing nice/custom domotic equipment06:40
kavachathey have netbook with clutter06:40
kavachathey never converted to Qt06:40
rasterbzhb: evas *IS* the display bit of efl and it IS *and has been for almost 10 years) a 2d scene graph (canvas)06:40
almehdikavacha: I really don't think they cared...06:40
nand_almehdi: for you, is limo a product or consortium?06:40
chouchounecedric: ok, it's not the same ones I guess06:40
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tcpsynThis project got me excited until I got in here for an hour listening to you all babble about licensing. You're missing the point.06:41
rasterso no - i havent looked at the qt scene graph as i havent been looking at qt for inspiration :)06:41
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cedricchouchoune: so actually France as the biggest non paid community around the efl06:41
mrussellraster, what was efl's inspiration?06:41
mrussell(for scene graphs I mean)06:41
almehdinand_: both... kinda.. but Samsung was involved in that and have staff for making EFL06:41
rasteras such for web pages to render and display via EFL they have to go thru the scene graph.06:41
borcotcpsyn: this project ruined my yesterday and got me completely depressed.06:41
bzhbraster: of course efl scene graph is a lot older than qml scenegraph06:42
cedricin fact, the qt scenegraph took idea from evas design06:42
cedricas qml did from edje technology06:42
khertancedric: oh ... funny as i never heard of french company nor community using efl in france :)06:42
bzhbraster: Im just trying to understand06:42
jonnortcpsyn: people want something to talk about, and since there is essentially nothing, they make it up.06:43
rasterbzhb: thats my pojnt. i can't comment. i havent gone and looked at what qt is doing. no need.06:43
nand_ok, some of you guys here value open source or even openess (as in open process and knowledge); why not to agree on common statement that alternative APIs can be installed side by side, and if Qt is so awfully supported, e.g. not integrated with mobile features, people wont use it; I see the smartphones will ahve 1GB or RAM and plenty of fast storage (otherwise HTML5 wouldnt be considered)06:43
cedrickhertan: you are not reading linuxfr.org, that's impossible06:43
khertancedric: indeed :)06:43
kavachathe bottom line as I can see it is that Efl is unloved, even in samsung06:43
cedricevery three month we are doing some event in france06:43
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cedricdiner, conference, presentation06:43
tabe<jonnor> tcpsyn: people want something to talk about, and since there is essentially nothing, they make it up.06:43
tabe^06:43
khertancedric: seems i should :)06:43
rasterits a scene graph. you have objects. they retain state. they can be grouped and dealt with as grouped blobs.06:43
tabe+1 jonnor06:43
kavachahence without Qt they had no option but to push html5 as main framework06:43
rasterobjects auto re-render by themesleves as part of evas's state engine (scene graph) update code06:44
khertankavacha: there is also ncurse ....06:44
jihoonWhy is the name 'tizen'?06:44
cedrickhertan: oh, and i forgot, the only official association around E is french also06:44
rasteru "don't paint" in evas06:44
nand_(and Samsung and Intel can skip optional components on their hardware, other vendors may pick them for their shame)06:44
rasteru create and manipulate06:44
khertancedric: oh ... :)06:44
kavachathis is why for end users teh focus is Html 5 and all the sales pitch so far06:44
chouchounecedric: are you coming by Sophia Antipolis soon ?06:44
cedricwith around 30 or 40 members06:44
tcpsynjonnor: then we should be talking about framework and features. Not licensing and bullshit.06:44
tabe^06:44
kavachathis way they can drop efl without causing another fuss like has happened when intel dropped Qt06:44
rasteredje builds on top of evas's infra and makes more complex objects that internally are made up of lots of sub-objects (hidden away by the edje object) that auto layout all by themselevs06:44
tabepreach on, Rev. tcpsyn06:45
rasterand transition between states, react to events and signals etc.06:45
pabs3jihoon: check the tizen mailing list, that was explained there06:45
tcpsynWe've got a library of millions of linux apps. I see no reason why I can't fire up libreoffice on my phone if I want.06:45
erronnand_, the troll who trolled about droid x?06:45
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rastermrussell: actually tbh my work on EFM back in 2000 was the inspiration06:45
KuriYop raster06:46
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rastermrussell:  writing a filemanager meant i had to keep writing my own rendering code to handle updates and drawing alpha blended icons and layers of objects, and more06:46
cedricchouchoune: i may be coming to sophia in the end of november to met some friend06:46
rasterand i got tired of re-implementing the same object update/render/trackign code06:46
mrussellraster, interesting06:46
cedricone of them is the maintainer of the debian package06:46
rasterand i also got interested in using opengl to render06:46
rasterback then opengl for 2d was an epic experiemnt06:46
chouchounecedric: I meant, for something about EFL, but we can still have a drink and talk ;)06:46
rasterit didnt work well then06:46
rasterbut to use gl u couldnt RELY on it back in 2000 on linux06:47
rasterat all06:47
rasterso u HAD to abstract to either something that always worked and to gl when it could work06:47
vtorrichouchoune: come in #e.fr ;)06:47
cedricchouchoune: if you have a lug there, i could do a presentation06:47
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rasterreality was back then xrender was so abysmallly slow u were never going to use it to render scaled images06:47
cedricwe did that in dijon this year06:47
rasteror do blending06:47
chouchounecedric: yes we have06:47
rasteru'll be in the "woot! 2fps! yay" land06:47
rastertbh xrender STILL is poor06:47
cedricso we should plan something :)06:47
tabeMmmm, dijon mustard06:48
rasterpixman isnt amazing on x8606:48
rasterlast time i benchmarked evas's alpha blending mmx asm vs pixman - evas was going at 2x the speed06:48
rasteranyway06:48
rasterso.. u HAD to implement your own optimized software rendering AND had to have a separate path for gl06:48
rasterrealityt is u cant treat gl like 2d software rendering06:48
rasteras u HAVE to effectively do full buffer redraws and swaps06:48
mrussellindeed06:49
rastermany things thatare trivial and fast in a software 2d rendering api are slow and cumbersome in gl06:49
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mrussellwell, if you want any kind of performance :D06:49
rasterso sticking a 2d drawingt api on top of gl does work06:49
rasterbut leads to poor performance06:49
rasteror ti did back then06:49
rasterand in man caes still does06:49
rasterso u have to move your abstraction much higher up the stack06:49
raster...06:49
rasterthus... evas06:49
pabs3raster: so copy the rendering code from efl into pixman/xrender?06:49
rasterwhere is abstracted to totally remove any rendering calls06:50
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rasterpabs3:  not useful back then. xrender impls server side would alpha blend with the cpu TO video me06:50
rastermem06:50
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rasterthat means read pixle from ivdeo mem06:50
rasterread dest pixel06:50
rasterblend06:50
rasterwrite back06:50
pabs3ick06:50
rasterreads from vid mem... often 10x or 100x slower than writes06:51
rasterso u can optimize the routine all u like06:51
rasterx set up things SO it'd be horrid no matter how good the algo06:51
rasterso you had to keep it ALL in system mem if u used the cpu06:51
rasterand only do writes to video mem06:51
borcobye. hope to see some real news on the mailing list soon.06:51
Stskeepscya06:51
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rasterand there is no way to do that in x as u have no direct control over pixmap/window location06:51
rasterso for one person it may have performed ok, for another. it performed like total garbage06:52
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rasterand there is nothing u could do06:52
rasterwell except totallly bypassing xrender (and thus pixman)06:52
rasterback then pixman didnt even exist as a lib06:52
rasterit was inside the xserver06:52
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pabs3isn't it still the case that gpu memory is faster to write than read?06:52
rastercorrect06:52
rasterby a factor of 10x or 100x often06:53
pabs3nasty06:53
rastermore like reads are dog-slow06:53
rasteranyway06:53
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rasterrealities of the situation FORCED you to abstract high up06:53
rasterreality forced u to provide a software renderer of your own06:53
rasterthats just fine - iv'e written them several times06:53
rasternot a big deal06:53
rasteradvantages of having your own - u instantly port to raw framebuffer06:54
rasteras u already have all your drawing code06:54
rasteradvantages are too that u port eaier to other os's and display systems06:54
rastereasier06:54
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pabs3is it just me or is tizen scarily close in pronunciation to tism?07:24
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nand_anyone willing to stay with MeeGo-like API for their apps, look: there are chances to see a new platform formed from maemo even before tizen release: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203405504576599011587667984.html07:52
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vgradeEFL on MeeGo 7 months ago, http://www.youtube.com/user/vgrade100#p/u/19/ByIR-YmVOgU08:14
vgradewell enna on EFL on MeeGo anyway08:15
vgradespooky coincidence :)08:15
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arfollvgrade, guess I was even more ahead than I thought :-)08:16
arfollhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDglgEp6zyo - 10 months ago  :-)08:16
vgradeHi arfoll, see you next week ?08:16
arfollyeah, where are we meeting?08:16
vgradedon't know, just back from Spain so need to catch up08:17
chouchouneactually I think Free (french internet provider) has a set top box with both Qt and EFL08:17
arfollallright, well i kinda have internet now - wifi kindly lent from sysadmin at uni living next to me08:18
chouchouneso we could combine ;)08:18
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arfollchouchoune: isnt that the revolution?08:18
arfolli believe they even use wayland on that08:18
chouchounearfoll: yes, Freebox revolution08:19
chouchounethat's it08:19
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exmaclooks good. i'm installing enna08:22
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amjadhi08:33
amjadtizen == rpm based??08:33
exmacsince tizen managed by linux foundation, I think it will use the rpm08:34
Stskeepsamjad: yed08:34
xruxaRPM I heard. Though on long run both (rpm/deb) are bad choice for app store08:34
Stskeepsyes08:34
captainiglooexmac: enjoy ennna, report bugs ... :)08:37
captainiglooi will be happy ;)08:37
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exmacare you the author of enna ?08:37
captainiglooyes08:38
exmacOh! please give me a autograph :-)08:38
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captainiglooyou will not say taht when you will launch enna :)08:39
exmacI just installed enna on the ubuntu.08:39
captainiglooah yes ok, this one should be "stable"08:39
exmacLooks good. but character is broken in the weather08:40
exmachow can I set the font for enna ?08:41
captainigloowith this version you must change the theme to change the fonts08:42
captainiglooi guess you are using v0.408:42
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exmacyes. It's 0.4.108:43
exmachttp://imagepaste.nullnetwork.net/viewimage.php?id=252008:43
amjadand tizen will use open suse build service again??08:44
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nand_amjad: hmm it's now called Open Build Service08:47
exmaccaptainigloo, how can I edit the .edj ?08:47
Kuriexmac> you better take the source .edc file, modify it and rebuild it08:48
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exmacis .edc a source ? edj can converted from .edc format ?08:49
exmacIs there any editor for .edc ? or should I edit by manually ?08:50
nand_well, anyone knows why .edj files still exists in the post-8bit world?08:50
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araujoamjad, RPM+OBS is very likely to be used, yes08:51
Kuriexmac> .edj is compiled, .edc is its source file08:51
Kurinand_> your question is why .edj exists or why theres external themes ?08:53
exmacHm.. I want to know the format of edc and edc compiler ? Is it part of Enna? or EFL ?08:54
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Kuriexmac> its part of EFLs08:54
Kuriexmac> http://docs.enlightenment.org/auto/edje/08:54
exmacoh? thanks08:54
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exmacedje file looks like QML format08:56
mikeleibI wish08:56
Kuriexmac> QML is based on edje08:56
mikeleibit is?08:57
Kurii mean, the idea, not the code08:57
exmacInteresting...08:57
mikeleibAlthough e people might argue, I'd say that DOM + style + code is not unique to edje08:57
chouchounegreat08:57
Kurimikeleib> its indeed not unique, but who started ? :P08:58
andyrossAnd more broadly declarative programming is hardly a new idea anyway08:58
Kurii speak about Qt08:58
Kuriand GTK08:58
mikeleibI mean that I don't consider edje to be the source of such ideas08:58
* andyross wrote a parser for Motif .uim files way back in the day that he doesn't talk about anymore08:58
Kurimikeleib> if you relative things enough, nobody did08:59
mikeleibI think that's a fair conclusion08:59
Kurimikeleib> but Qt for exemple started calling there stuff edje08:59
mikeleibedje certainly was an early adopter and perhaps in a novel space08:59
nand_IIRC the difference is that extensibility of QML is fully machine independent - new components can be written in plain text; edje has just few bulding blocks and you program i plain C09:00
Kuriso it seems reasonnable that QML and edje looks a bit the same09:01
chouchounesyntax looks to me more friendly in QML09:01
nand_*in09:01
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chouchounebut maybe it's because I'm becoming familiar with it09:01
Kurichouchoune> maybe yes09:01
exmacIs there any GUI editor for edje like qt desiger ?09:02
Kurinand_> yes but that theres people that doesnt care about that, will still have to build your app, or go python/ruby09:02
exmacEditje ?09:02
nand_both have separation for controlers and presentation, but QML apps also use model while I have not seen EFL apps that use models too much09:02
Kuriexmac> yes and no, there was a crappy one that stopped, and theres another that will be made in the future09:02
Kurinand_> what do you mean by models ?09:03
nand_data model, e.g. list of phone numbers, then displayed on your contact app09:03
exmacunfotunately, no editje package in the ubuntu..09:03
Kurinand_> theres elementary widgets09:03
Kurii dont know if i understood you correctly09:03
Kurii kind of suck at speaking english09:04
nand_Kuri: usage of models is very important for apps that use panning, not using them can destroy any efforts put in the framework09:04
Kuriwell, ive a language barrier hehe, maybe this should be speak with someone better than me09:05
nand_Kuri: sure, and are written in C, not in a script, unlike in QML; so QML is closer to principles of tizen ;)09:05
exmacmaybe nand_ is saying the model-view concept of Qt409:06
Kurielementary widget are in C but you can totally theme them with .edc09:06
Kuriyou can "overcharge?" an elementary object09:06
nand_exmac: yes, its incarnation of QML, originally it was used in qwidgets API IIRC, then recreated for simplicity or so09:06
Kuriso you can change colors, animations, etc09:06
exmacIIRC ?09:07
nand_Kuri: this is for combining them only, not so much compared to QML (or to be honest: highl level frameworks written in HTML5 that tizen would finally use after all if their politics dislike QML)09:08
Kurihum09:08
Kuriisnt tizen for netbooks, etc ?09:09
nand_exmac: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=iirc09:09
nand_we hope so...09:09
exmacnand_, thx! :-)09:09
nand_but MS can bribe the vendors earlier than sooner09:09
nand_pushing win 809:10
exmacYes it was used in qwidget. especially qlistview09:10
Kurii have problems understanding why using so high stuff on slow hardware09:10
Kurii consider this is done to simplify devs work, but in the end, the ultimate goal, is the user experience09:11
Kuriso, why people want to implement slow libs ?09:11
Kurii am not trolling09:11
nand_ohh they dont09:11
nand_and you are not trolling09:11
nand_these questions would be addressed but the creators do not tell details just now09:12
Kurithis is why i just dont want android for exemple09:13
Kurinand_> we did tests in the past, between GTK/Qt/EFLs09:13
Kurion slow hardware09:14
Kuri(200MHZ MIPS CPU)09:14
KuriQt was to heavy to even be able to init09:14
KuriGTK had we slow framerate09:14
Kurioops09:14
Kuris/we/very/09:14
KuriEFLs were good at that09:14
nand_Kuri: I think your bottleneck was RAM09:14
Kurinand_> RAM and CPU09:15
Kurieven GTK failed at perfs09:15
nand_Kuri: you can compile statically and/or strip down Qt09:15
Kurithere was 32MB of RAM09:15
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nand_you may skip qwidgets almost entirely in qt4 and entirelly in qt509:15
fabrice1today's low end smartphones have at 500Mhz CPU and 128Mo of RAM09:15
Kurifabrice1> yes, and is it a reason to waste resources ?09:16
Kurifabrice1> you can use ruby or java if you dont care09:16
andyrossFWIW, to Intel (and Samsung) a 200MHz MIPS isn't part of the target profile.  Smallest device they're lookin gat would be 512MB 800MHz Atom (or ARM A8 I guess)09:16
fabrice1Kuri: the time you spend writing your uber optimized lib, the hardware is still better09:16
nand_Kuri: you wont get great user experince on that hardware anyway, so maybe use simple canvas library and blit as many simple pixmaps as possible instead of computing gfx09:16
Kuriyou will blow up battery and perfs for other apps09:16
Kurifabrice1> thats were number of devs counts09:17
Kuriwhere*09:17
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fabrice1most dev want a framework to build apps, not to build the framework itself09:18
Kuribut if you are going lazy from the first libs, then what will be the APps09:18
captainiglooexmac: easy, find the theme file should be in /usr/share/enna/theme/default.edj09:18
nand_Kuri: libs are shared. This means you have only one copy on moders os (even Symbian is modern in this sense)09:18
captainiglooedje_cc default.edj09:18
captainiglooexmac: it will decompile the edje09:18
Kurifabrice1> devs "wantings" doesnt count in my opninion09:18
fabrice1Kuri: good luck to get traction :)09:18
captainiglooexmac: there you will find edc files and in default.edc you should find a font section09:19
captainiglooexmac: you can change the ttf name09:19
nand_bye09:19
captainiglooexmac:add the ttf in the same directory09:19
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captainiglooexmac: and build it again with the ./build.sh script09:19
Kurifabrice1> i dont care about that, i already use EFLs at work, and i get my public already :P09:19
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Kurifabrice1> its just that nobody knows its EFLs09:20
captainiglooexmac: this script just call edje_cc09:20
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Kurifabrice1> cause my users just dont care at all09:20
Kurifabrice1> they want it to work, and when i give my benchmarks to my chief, everybody is happy =)09:20
fabrice1I guess you work in a very controlled environment09:21
Kuriyes09:21
exmaccaptainigloo, thx, I just extracted enna-0.4.0.tgz and I'm considering to give the build due to too many dependencies :-)09:21
exmacI am just looking .edc files in the data/theme/default09:22
captainiglooexmac: you need efl09:22
captainiglooall of them09:22
captainiglooand i'm pretty sure that the 0.4 version will not build with the current svn09:22
captainiglooas i release this version before the API freeze09:22
chouchounemmmhhh, this chan is becoming #EFL or what :(09:22
exmacyes. should I build the all efl component from scratch? or can I install them from synaptic ?09:23
captainiglooah, i guess that dpkg shoudl have a command to get the list of dependencies09:23
yozfor exemple -> http://packages.qa.debian.org/e/eina.html09:23
Kurichouchoune> lol09:23
Kuriyoz> eina <309:24
captainiglooexmac: depends what you want09:24
Kuribrb09:24
captainiglooexmac: if you want to build the latest mercurial version of enna you need svn version of efl09:24
captainiglooif you want 0.4 you need ubuntu packages09:24
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exmaccaptainigloo, I am building efl. thx!09:31
exmacI am going to set the prefix of EFL to $HOME/e to protect my ubuntu box from efl :-)09:33
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captainiglooexmac: maybe you could find this blog post usefull : http://dev.enlightenment.fr/~captainigloo/2011/01/23/enna-compilation-on-ubuntu-4/09:46
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exmacthx!09:46
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morrishmm09:47
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captainiglooexmac: ah and if you finally get enna working, you should try it with the stb theme, enna -t stb09:56
exmacok, thx! I having a trouble to build eina09:58
exmaceina_main.c:78:1: error: stray ?\354? in program09:58
vtorri?09:59
vtorriwhich compiler ?09:59
jonnorI suspect encoding issues10:00
vtorristatic Eina_Version _version = { VMAJ, VMIN, VMIC, VREV };    <--- line 7810:00
exmacjooncheol@jparkvm:~/efl$ gcc --version10:01
exmacgcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.5.2-8ubuntu4) 4.5.210:01
exmacjooncheol@jparkvm:~/efl$ gcc --versiongcc (Ubuntu/Linaro 4.5.2-8ubuntu4) 4.5.210:01
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exmacmaybe we better talk this in #e :-)10:01
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exmacBecause this chan is #tizen10:01
vtorri#edevelop10:01
vtorrii'm not in #e10:01
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exmacActually my final goal is executing enna on my lenovo s10t what I've received from intel on last meego conf at dublin ;-)10:02
captainiglooexmac: it works pretty well ;)10:03
captainiglooi ha ve the same ^^10:03
exmacreally ? did you go dublin meego conf ?10:03
captainigloowith software or gl engien10:03
captainigloonope paris conf10:03
captainigloosolution linux10:04
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exmacoh...10:04
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captainiglooexmac: http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2011/09/enlightening-your-dell-duo-with-linux.html10:09
captainiglooi'm using this distro on it, with this profile, it's just perfect :)10:09
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Shapeshiftercaptainigloo: the frame seems quite huge10:20
Shapeshifterand the display hence quite small10:20
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Philosophhey everyone11:36
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sourcecodehello ... my name is Martin ... just curious about Tizen and looking forward to an open smartphone os ...12:18
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sourcecodejust read on the tizen site that joining development will only take place on invitation ,.... is this correct or subject to change?12:20
chouchounesourcecode: that concerns some projects teams12:21
chouchounelike QA, release engineering12:21
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chouchouneit's not stated how we will be able to contribute to the code, etc...12:22
sourcecodewould there also be a chance for academic institutions to support tizen ... e.g. for development on engery saving functionality within the os or other parts?12:23
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chouchouneno idea12:23
fabrice1sourcecode: boot 2 gecko is a better option for this I think. There's a git repo where you can actually contribute12:24
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sourcecodefabricel: is this repo already up ... does the tizen source differ greatly from the meego one?12:32
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sourcecodeok ... bye ... cu12:40
sourcecoderegards12:40
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nand_http://blog.rburchell.com/2011/09/beauty-of-open-source.html12:58
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thekikenhow to register user in tizen.org ???14:19
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Stskeepsthekiken: you don't, yet - they wanted the single sign on to function well14:20
thekikenok, thanks Stskeeps14:21
berndhsno more multiple sign on, you now have not two ids, not one, but zero!14:22
Stskeepsberndhs: it does simplify a lot of things14:22
Stskeeps:P14:22
berndhsyeah :)14:22
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nand_OK looks like MeeGo would be continued http://blog.jospoortvliet.com/2011/09/meego-and-opensuse-invitation.html15:26
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l0L-ITwhere is the sources/source code 4 tizen15:55
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l0L-ITwhere is the sources/source code 4 tizen15:58
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iekkumorning20:39
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menoxjust one question.  Is risen still going to be using Qt?21:28
menox*risen21:29
menoxstupid autocorrect21:30
menox*tizen21:30
Paimenwell it is not sure is it in the reference builds or do you need to add it by your own, but atleast Nmovok has promised that they will make Tizen builds with Qt21:36
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reroohi there21:54
Paimenhello21:55
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iekkuNomovok has drummed about that so much, that i think they need to make it happen22:09
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--- Log closed Fri Sep 30 00:00:23 2011

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