IRC log of #tizen for Wednesday, 2011-09-28

--- Log opened Wed Sep 28 00:00:21 2011
--- Day changed Wed Sep 28 2011
rasterStskeeps:  yeah. abi-wise we should be fine00:00
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savsborco: afaict there isn't a native SDK story for tizen yet.00:00
wmaroneborco: well, we'll need to wait for something resembling an sdk ;)00:00
* Stskeeps so regrets not taking his laptop today00:00
savsraster: will there be an EFL/GTK native SDK for tizen, do you know?00:01
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* raster needs to make a xchat command for the official statement00:01
borcomoving from qt widgets to qml, with all the incompatibility between Maemo5 (no Qt Components), Symbian Compos and Harmattan Compos was also a pain in the b*t. should we expect the same here? intel and samsung variants?00:01
swishy[home]raster lol00:01
raster"hi. i'm raster. i seem to be the BDFL of e. i work at samsung electronics in the mobile r&d division where we work on and use EFL for making applications and mobile OS'S. no i don't work on android, bada, or wp7"00:01
khertanWe aren't 1 april, isn't it ?00:02
borcohow many sdks will i have to lear? i was planning this autumn to look over c++11 not html5 :-/00:02
wmaronekhertan: not yet00:02
khertanlook like a try to promote android00:02
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jrayhawkhaha linuxfordevices: "Check out the latest Linux powered mobile phones, MIDs, UMPCs & tablets! *picture of HTC Dream and Nokia n810*"00:05
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swishy[home]borco no reason some of that functionality cant be exposed via js bindings00:08
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tzorvasso limo as a middleware, is really a framework between applications?00:10
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kPb_inhello all :)00:14
wmaronehi, welcome to the chaos!00:14
savstzorvas: forget about LiMo, it's irrelevant.00:14
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pabs3savs: how so?00:18
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savsit's really SLP, not LiMo. See for example00:20
swishy[home]is there anything on the interwebs around current proposals on the stack? im assuming the plan is a open version of the 'webos' style approach?00:20
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chouchouneaha (nervous laugh ;)), already !00:21
swishy[home]linux kernel / services devices handled as expected and js bindings on top?00:21
borcoswishy[home]: yep, that would be an option. any pointers on how to do this? will everybody make their own js wrapper or will we have some platform js lib that can be used?00:21
savsswishy[home]: probably linux+gtk/efl with a webkit web runtime on top is my guess00:21
pabs3gtk *and* efl? why both?00:22
borcosavs: so no qt? back to gtk?00:22
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khertanborco: look like a back to gecko00:22
khertanborco: you know like iphone 1, html apps00:22
savsbecause samsung can't decide? ;-)00:22
tbfwondering if they will try to get hands on webos' html5 ui toolkit00:22
khertanthey are still trying to compete against iphone 100:22
savsborco: Qt has the smell of Nokia on it, sadly00:22 save time00:22
savsnever mind the complete APIs, documentation, community, SDK, ...00:22
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swishy[home]borco nicest way would be a common api js side and plugable wrapper layer I guess00:23
lgeyerBy October Qt will be Open Governance  - a bit of the Nokia smell has gone ;)00:23
tbf...but also don't mind its completely broken memory management it inherits from C++00:23
borcokhertan: i know nothing of iphone, except from reading. hard to believe, but it's the truth. until i've won a n900 almost 1 year ago, i had only cheap phones :-)00:23
khertantbf: no ... they ll reinvent the wheel, NIH syndrom00:24
swishy[home]borco means minimal effort goig forward for new device support etc00:24
tbfkhertan: i fear. i fear.00:24
tzorvasand from maemo to meego and after that to tizen00:24
khertanborco: so imagine your n900 with only the web browser as running application00:24
savslgeyer: open governance is a great step forward, but type 'Qt' into Google today and look hard at the first result.00:24
wmaronekhertan: how terrifying00:25 --- tells you everything you need to know if you're a competing mobile manufacturer only looking skin-deep00:25
khertanswishy[home]: js api ... nicest ... how can you use this both word in the same sentence00:25
khertanswishy[home]: javascript api ... mean also lost all developpers00:25
borcokhertan: porting my app from qt widgets to qml was a pain, especially because the form factors of targeted phones and qt compos available on part of the platforms00:25
swishy[home]khertan when you use js properly its actually pretty damn awesome00:26
pabs3I wonder if this tizen general mailing list will be archived00:26
savskhertan: js api - means also lost all _NATIVE_ developers00:26
lgeyersavs: If that's the way how decisions are made in this project...00:26
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borcokhertan: if various tizen platforms will do the same, it will be a nightmare00:26
khertansavs: and other ... many don't want to do js ... i00:26
savslgeyer: decisions are made at the political/corporate level, and the technical has to fall in line.00:26
tbfswishy[home]: js remains a two weeks hack...00:26
khertanborco: yeah qml is already a nightmare00:26
swishy[home]khertan I was meaning re being able to access devices lower level sockets etc as above from a html5 based application00:26
borcoi hope the netbook, phone, ivi variants will be kept in sync00:27
tbf...let's just point out the lack of some common ADT library00:27
swishy[home]tbf yeap part of its beauty00:27
savskhertan: "For those who use native code in their applications, the Tizen SDK will include a native development kit."00:27
khertanswishy[home]: yeah for doing hello words js is nice00:27
tbfeveryone in need of a proper hash table or priority queue is NIHing with javascript00:27
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tbfevery framework has its own, incompatible implementation00:27
swishy[home]tbf we have done such before00:27
swishy[home]anyway I wasnt trying to start a flame war re native vs js etc00:28
tbfswishy[home]: i fully support the idea of using HTML5 for UI...00:28
swishy[home]just more interested in how such was going to be supported given the html5 based application mentioned on the site00:28
swishy[home]webos got part way there00:28
tbf...and i am a big fan of high level languages, including javascript00:28
swishy[home]and had some pretty kick ass tools00:28
tbfi'd only hope for someone finally bringing javascript into shape. making a serious platform....00:29
tbf...instead of just abusing it as fancy buzz word00:29
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borcohow difficult will be to install your own js libs? who/how will the lib tested and controlled that it doesn't do more than advertised?00:29
swishy[home]I guess the thought was , was there going to be a common binding layer for devices/low level to js or were we going to have to do the plugin thing that webos was doing00:29
borcohow difficult for a single app devel will this process be?00:29
khertanwho will be interested by such device00:30
savsswishy[home]: the thought was more along the lines of "how can we roll up WAC and LiMo to make them look something other than a failure, whilst also killing MeeGo?"00:30
khertanthere is still no future00:30
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swishy[home]savs right makes sense, ah what is WAC? sorry not familure with the acronym00:31
savsswishy[home]: exactly ;-)
* pabs3 finds this to be relevant
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swishy[home]savs haha :) thanks00:33
chouchouneoh dear, WAS looks horrible :/00:34
bash`pabs3: but this way opensource users have choice ;)00:34
rastermike_m:  rotfl00:34
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borcojust spotted it...00:36
pabs3best headline!00:37
mike_m"FT Deutschland reckons the mating dance of the two zombies will be announced tomorrow. "00:38
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vignattitpalli: moi :)00:40
drovignatti: moikka00:40
tpallivignatti: moi!00:40
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vignatti76 so far here00:40
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vignattilet's see how many we'll get..00:41
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vignattidro: ah, dominik... :)(00:41
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sree_tpalli, vignatti: hello :)00:47
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swishy[home]savs mmm I can kinda see why that didnt take off :)00:50
vignattisree_: heya sree :)00:52
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borcojust a passing thought: will vala be supported in the tizen sdk? :-)01:00
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borcoif i'm to learn something new, why not a boatload of stuff, yeees? :-D01:01
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rasterin hungarian, tizen == "teen"01:10
rastertizenhat == sixteen01:10
rasterso tizen is a teen01:11
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* araujo found that out too ...... though wonders if it was named after that meaning actually01:12
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ErwinJungeNah, they just hired a lot of monks at intel. tizen == The Intel ZEN01:13
araujowell, I can't stop thinking of a Zen-related  term :P01:13
chouchouneErwinJunge: you mean, TI (Texas Instrument) zen ?01:14
araujothat now makes sense ... monks, meego, samsung == tizen01:14
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chouchounethey can be really zen with such a move from Intel ;)01:14
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ErwinJungechouchoune: :)01:15
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araujoTizen Is Zen01:16
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Gruwohi all01:17
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ErwinJungearaujo: Recursive acronym, nice :)01:18
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borcomy problem with tizen and meego is that, in the end, they depend on some hardware developer. gnu/linux distros have a lot of independence, but these mobile platforms have not. if nokia is out, we must move to tizen. what will happen when samsung moves out? :-(01:20
araujoErwinJunge, :)01:20
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swishy[home]borco the only constant thing is change, no point worrying about market shift that will happen you just do they best with the current situation01:21
diorahmandamn! no more Qt01:22
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chouchouneNovomok going to maintain it on Tizen ?01:23
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chouchounecf. Meego community mailing list01:23
borcoand i'm curious if linux foundation will really support and promote tizen or will continue to prefer android over other mobile platforms and let tizen drift into obscurity, like a cinderella and like it did with meego...01:23
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borcoswishy[home]: change is good, but uprooting can kill a plant...01:24
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borcoas much as i dislike de icaza, this kind of changes make me understand him a bit...01:26
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swishy[home]borco sometimes the plant just needs to be less dependant on its environment ;)01:28
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lgeyerYou can't run any serious business without stability and standards. Tizen is the 8th or 9th Linux derivative with the 4th or 5th incompatible development API in just a few years. Why should anyone even bother to hop on if the same mistakes are made again?01:29
borcoso what do i have to learn now to get a "tizen job"? any openings at intel or samsung for interested parties? :-D01:29
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rasterlgeyer:  well meego didnt count because it never produced anything (worth writing home about)01:30
rastermoblin too actually :(01:30
rasterthe odd netbook01:30
pabs3borco: even better, how do I get tizen dev handsets01:30
rasterthat wasnt even any volume worth talking about?01:30
yangmeatborco: what ways do you understand about de icaza? I'm wondering what similar about de icaza and tizen?01:30
lgeyerMeeGo at least ended up in a real product - even if it was just a single one ;)01:31
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rasterlgeyer: n9?01:35
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pabs3wasn't that maemo 6?01:36
lgeyerNo, MeeGo.01:36
borcoyangmeat: de icaza: We’ve managed to piss off developers every step of the way, breaking APIs all the time.01:36
pabs3huh, could have fooled me01:36
* kavacha thinks that lgeyer, misunderstood the marketing 01:36
kavachathat was purely marketing strategy, hence "Harmattan meego"01:37
kavachaif it was meego then just call it meego01:37
rasterlgeyer:  not meego. maemo 6 (harmattan).01:37
rasterit has qt on01:38
rasterbut either way... its a device that is being made in limited number and not being pushed as its "an experimental device for mobile research" for nokia.01:38
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chouchouneraster: yes, but Tizen is a "nothing for end 2012" ...01:39
chouchounebetter buy an n9 now ...01:39
rasternfi there. wasn't talking about tizen there :)01:40
rastermeego itself never ended up in a real product01:40
* pabs3 goes to stock up on the GTA0201:40
chouchouneraster: WeTab01:40
rasterso technicalllt it never went onto n901:40
chouchouneCubovision from Telecom Italia01:40
rasterthe wetba i used was not meego. well it had some qt01:41
rastersome gtk, firefox stuff01:41
rastera whole mix that wasnt the meego indicated for the phone/tablet world01:41
rasterat least01:41
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chouchouneMeeGo is just a compliance spec01:41
chouchouneWeTab was compliant01:42
chouchouneand is, btw01:42
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rasterwetab unfortunately also doesnt quite make "real product" category as its available almost nowhere :(01:43
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rasterit'd be so much better if it was01:43
chidambarhi guys01:43
borcoharmattan meego is meego with debs, qt quick compos and a swipe ui. not sure how you can call it meego...01:43
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dylfhi all01:44
dylfanyone knowing some compability with harmattan hardware01:44
chouchouneborco: looks MeeGo compliant except for debs01:44
borcofrom the point of view of my apps, i can call my fedora 15 a better meego as it uses rpm :D01:44
kavachachouchoune: debs ?01:45
tpalliit is very close to meego in terms of packages and versions used, there was effort to do that01:45
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chouchounetpalli: Harmattan ?01:46
chouchounekavacha: deb/rpm ... packages01:46
dylfNokia MeeGo Harmattan like N9 or n95001:46
kavachait is rpm based :(01:46
tpallichouchoune : yes01:47
dylfso tizen will be rpm based?'01:47
chouchounehope so01:47
chouchouneat least RPM or .deb01:47
araujodylf, apparently so01:47
kavachawhich is a terrible shame01:47
kavachato ruin another distro by convertung to rpm01:48
emanmeh. As if the packaging matters in the end01:48
dylfok... just wondering if I buy a N9, and nokia delivers 2 "major" SW updates during the next year01:48
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pabs3its just a file format01:48
emancompared to having a working userland01:48
chouchounewhat's LiMo packaging format ?01:48
lgeyerMeeGo Harmattan is a MeeGo (compatible) system.01:48
dylfthen what after that01:48
chouchoune(if any ;))01:48
kavachalimo was deb01:49
dylfharmattan is a debian based system01:49
pabs3kavacha: as long as the code is open you can get the stuff into Debian and have a deb-based phone01:49
chouchounekavacha: ok so that means, at least, that we keep a MeeGo based system01:49
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kavachapabs3: only have to repackage a couple of hundred packages for that :D01:50
kavachachouchoune: MeeGo based ?01:50
threshso like, can I run tizen on my n90001:50
kavachait is not a merger01:50
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pabs3kavacha: like what? I'm making a list of things to package ;)01:51
dylfoh love to have Tizen to run on my n900 as well01:51
borcowith tizen, will i be able to make an app with an profile-agnostic core and load a profile-specific html5 ui at runtime? is this possible with meego, by the way?01:52
dylfstill missing some community around running different OS on different HW01:52
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pabs3dylf: SHR guys support multiple devices:
borcoor will you simply use the screen resolution + ppi to determine the physical size and load a specific skin for that physical size?01:53
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diorahmanI'm pretty sure it would just like impactjs01:53
chouchouneso, what now ?01:54
chouchounewe're spectators until first quarter 2012 ?01:54
diorahmanchouchoune: yay!01:54
chouchoune(at best, if they're on schedule)01:54
savschouchoune: LiMo/Samsung Linux Platform is .deb01:55
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* pabs3 suggests go work on E17/GNOME/KDE01:55
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diorahmanwe love deb!01:55
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kavachadiorahman: but intel does not01:56
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* raster works on e17... and efl.. and is happy - mostly01:56
diorahmankavacha: but samsung does! LOL!01:56
savskavacha: but does intel love people shipping handsets with their platform more than it loves rpm?01:56
diorahmansavs: nice!01:56
diorahmanwhat makes rpm better than deb anyway? it's just tarballs01:57
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emandiorahman: They are essentially the same. People just like arguing about them like they like to argue over clothing colour schemes, I mean football teams01:58
chouchouneRPM or DEB, really, what matters ???01:58
savsdiorahman: these days they are broadly equivalent, but developers prefer what they are familiar with.01:58
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savsbiggest bonus of .deb is being able to stay close to debian upstream. biggest bonus of .rpm is being close to fedora upstream.01:59
kaddiorahman: deb is bunch of tars inside ar archive. rpm is cpio with binary headers :)01:59
* pabs3 prefers Debian rather than .deb 01:59
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anaZwhy do you want to stay close to anything upstream anyways02:00
* swishy[home] would have thought package management would have been least of the concerns at this point in the journey02:00
savsanaZ: because if you're not close, you're wasting money in local maintenance02:00
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savsanaZ: and missing out on upstream innovation02:00
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diorahmankad: yeah, that's silly02:00
emananaZ: and chasing already fixed bugs02:01
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kavachawith debian do "git clone repo; cd repo; dpkg-buildpackage -rfakeroot ;"02:01
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kaddiorahman: the point was, why do you care ? :) apps is what actually matter, not the way how it's distributed.02:01
kavachawhat do you have to do with rpm to build the package,02:01
anaZsavs: on mobile platform you do not want to follow anything, you want to be your own thing02:01
Shapeshifterso, when is tizen going to be binned for the next big thing some decision making people think 'the future belongs to'?02:01
Shapeshifterone or two years?02:01
kavachaa whole lot more, including finding the spec file :)02:01
anaZI think we are mature enough to go alone02:01
savsanaZ: no. on mobile platform, you want a solid base that you don't have to care about, on top of which you build innovation (e.g. user experience)02:01
diorahmankad: exactly it is02:02
emanShapeshifter: I don't think after this move there will be any more mobile Linux groups to merge with..02:02
anaZyou can follow anything in the base, regardless of packaging format02:02
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savseman: indeed. (no more linux mobile platforms)02:03
dylfso what if another large vendor is already working on a new linux platform02:03
chouchouneeman: Bada is coming ;)02:04
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chouchouneSamsung will compete with Intel+Samsung ;)02:04
Shapeshifteryeah, because that always works out great. like when Nokia competes with Nokia.02:05
emankavacha: the rpm workflow can be optimised through using mock if you actually want the answer. Anyway, packaging is mostly irrelevant to the success of the platform02:05
chouchouneyes, we don't care about packaging02:05
chouchounemmmhh, I don't care at least02:05
chouchouneI care about how can I be involved in02:06
chouchounehow can I contribute02:06
Shapeshifterthe end user doesn't care, but packaging should be easy.02:06
chouchouneand what technologies will be available to work on"heavy" apps conuming resources02:06
chouchouneShapeshifter: RPM and deb are easy02:07
Shapeshifterchouchoune: deb is terrible02:07
chouchounethat's not a problem02:07
Shapeshifterchouchoune: there are different files you have to edit and the syntax is a fucking joke. I mean seriously, put one more " " in any place and the package creation will fail. deb is a freakin dinosaur.02:07
Stskeepsfirst day and we are on rpm vs deb?02:07
khertanas always02:08
arfoll^ lol - what did you expect02:08
ShapeshifterI don't know about rpm, but it sounds similarily annoying.02:08
emansavs: that's depressing when you think of all the cumulative human hours spent and the amount of re-use..02:08
savseman: yep.02:08
anaZStskeeps: yeah, isnt that weird02:08
anaZwho cares02:08
chouchouneis it stated what engine will be used for HTML5/Javascript ?02:08
threshwhy would someone want to contribute to this idiocy is beyond my understanding02:08
anaZi would have expected EFL vs Qt vc GTK vs whatever02:08
threshhow many times did those companies fucked users over02:09
arfollchouchoune: i'm betting heavily on efl02:09
anaZusers of what?02:09
chouchounearfoll: yes, but what on top ?02:09
chouchouneWebkit ?02:09
arfollefl webkit02:09
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borcousing upstream packages is a pointless thing. fedora or debian are desktops and most (all?) GUI apps from there are not optimised for touch and small screens02:10
borcoyou might be able to take some daemons from upstream, but i don't expect much more than that02:10
Shapeshifterborco: and any cli applications.02:10
emanborco: you mean upstream distributions, upstream packages FTW02:10
chouchounearfoll: other engines might work with EFL too02:11
borcoyep, that's what i mean02:11
rasteranaZ: come on... rpm vs deb is the precursor to warring over emacs vs vi... thats next02:11
chouchounebut I bet on Webkit too02:11
lbt_helraster: emacs is in core!02:11
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Shapeshifterso, you all think that rpm and deb are the only two options?02:11
rasteremacs.... WIN!02:11
anaZcore what02:11
pabs3borco: I'm running Debian on my phone (with E17)02:11
rasterShapeshifter: we must use jar's!02:11
emanShapeshifter: I think a lot of us couldn't care less :)02:11
lbt_helthere is no spoon.... there is no core02:11
borcoi've tried some games on my n900, that were "ported" (recompiled) to maemo and they were impossible to use02:12
lbt_helraster: I'm thinking elisp and frames as the next UI dev paradigm?02:12
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lbt_helwe can ship .elc packages !02:12
Shapeshifterborco: quite a few work well though. openttd, pingus, all the emulators02:12
borcopabs3: i appreciate your tenacity :D02:12
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borcoShapeshifter: what do you mean with "work well"? like actual playing? or like they display the animation fluidly and they don't crash?02:13
borcoShapeshifter: there's a big difference in this!02:13
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borcothere are some games that needs a mouse and a keyboard. how do you play them on n900?02:14
Shapeshifterborco: playable, enjoyable.02:14
Shapeshifterborco: using a pen and keyboard?02:14
Shapeshifteronly the rightclick is missing..02:15
Anssi138what was the status of Qt in this again?02:15
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ShapeshifterAnssi138: ignored infavour of 'next big thing'02:15
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Anssi138That's official stance?02:16
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borcoShapeshifter: i still believe that apps should have different interfaces for desktop and phone. until they can read my mind, at least.02:16
Shapeshifterborco: of course.02:17
Shapeshifterborco: I agree that most applications are kinda useless on a 3.5" screen.02:17
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Shapeshifterborco: which is why it would be nice if people had used Qt MVC to write for the different devices. I don't see how HTML5 would solve this problem. Basically, you have to write different interfaces for the different devices anyway.02:18
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borcoShapeshifter: that's probably why iphone was so succesfull, as far as i understand - apple forced devels to make apps that with a new api, that didn't have to be compatible with their desktop equivs. thus the apps were great for iphone.02:18
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Shapeshifterwell that's disputable.02:19
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Anssi138webpages & mailing lists are quite ... empty02:19
jabisI've seen dozens of horrile ports of software -on iphone02:19
borcoShapeshifter: yep. i have ported my small app to QML, for Maemo, Harmattan and Symbian. with 3 different sets of QML files. it's a pain and i only have 1 window and 3 dialogs02:19
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slaineSo how do we pronounce this02:20
Anssi138so is the Qt supported or not?02:20
borcoShapeshifter: the QML compos from Symbian and Harmattan are different. Maemo, as required for OVI publish, has no compos at all.02:21
jabisnice to have my N9, but this move kills my ambition to develop anything for it x)02:21
slaineis it tizen as in "citizen", teh-zen, or is it just tizen as in tie-zen02:21
Shapeshifterborco: maybe a good GUI editor for QML files could aid the problem. But in any case, I think all these efforts are wasted anyway because in the end, the manufacturer will just take the base of any OS and then slam on whatever crap they've been developing themselves. You don't see any vanilla OS' on tablets or phones, except for a few Android devices. On top of that: Who's actually going to care about writing the same apppplication ...02:21
Shapeshifter... for a phone and an in-car entertainment system?02:21
Termanaslaine, I don't think anyone actually knows02:22
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borcoShapeshifter: so a lot of qmake and ifdefs in the code. and hand made ui for maemo, using only the standard qml02:22
chouchouneAnssi138: novomok stated that they would build Qt on their Tizen builds02:23
borcoShapeshifter: yes, you're right. you can't use the ivi to control your bedroom tv :D unless you live in the garage :D02:23
jabis"who cares" - the one trying toget some $ making  "cross-phone" software? ;)02:23
chouchoune(at least, someone from Novomok, on meego-community ML)02:23
Anssi138chouchoune, ok. so it's not the first choice if i interpret that correctly02:24
chouchouneAnssi138: the first (only) official choice for Tizen is HTML502:25
annmait's not in the announcement Anssi13802:25
chouchouneand WAC (wich looks like HTML5, in worse)02:25
borcowhy would i make my app with qt if it's not in the vanilla firmware. if i want to publish on ovi for n900, i can't use anything not in ovi. i don't expect to be much different on tizen02:25
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chouchouneborco: just make our store ;)02:26
Shapeshifterborco: I think dependencies can be installed without a problem.02:26
borcoor do you expect our users to upgrade 20 packages a day, like when using debian unstable?02:26
chouchounethat could be a good idea to have a community project to maintain a store for Qt apps02:26
Anssi138chouchoune, annma. ok thanks for the warning ;)02:27
borcochouchoune: my app is still in maemo-testing, after 3 months. it was published in ovi after 8 days.02:30
borcochouchoune: having your store is good as long as you maintain it.02:30
borcochouchoune: publishing on ovi was also much simpler. the only drawback was the 1$ entry fee :-)02:31
lgeyerAnssi138: Keep in mind that "There is no official Qt support." might not be "There won't be Qt possible."02:31
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Shapeshifterwhat a waste of time anyway.02:32
chouchouneQt will probably be possible (cf Novomok)02:32
chouchounebut it's a shame we don't have any official native framework available02:32
chouchouneQt or whatever02:32
anaZwe have "whatever"02:33
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* timoph will wait and see how things play out without committing to anything yet02:33
nmirhey, are there project members from tizen in here?02:34
timophbeen burned too many times lately02:34
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jabis"whatever" being NDK x)02:34
nmircurious if webkit is the rendering engine for html02:34
nmirdoes anyone know?02:34
lgeyerKeep in mind that every Qt port (besides Symbian) is more or less 3rd party (Windows, Mac, Linux, Android, iOS, ...) by Nokia or the community. So it might be for Tizen too.02:35
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pabs3nmir: is there anything else?02:35
nmirpabs3: i would hope not, but you know how stupid people are.02:35
borcowill linux be supported as a first class development citizen? or will i have to use mac or windows to develop for tizen?02:36
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Shapeshifterlol... if 'the linux foundation' makes something that's impossible to code for using linux...02:36
nmirif it uses webkit-based html rendering for the entire display/ui layer, it could be really really great, especially with hardware optimization02:36
borcowhat languages will the native sdk support? c? c++? vala? python?02:36
nmirbut if they are going to push some sort of other shit i have no interest whatsoever02:37
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jrautioI guess you should be able to code for tizen using tizen02:37
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jrautiothat's what I've been doing with MeeGo, anyway02:37
borcohow is tizen open vs android? what i see is that in a couple of months something will be delivered. isn't the same with android?02:37
jonnorThe project was just announced. Don't expect to get real answers to these questions before a couple of months have passed.02:39
borcoif this is driven by intel and samsung, will i simply have to accept whatever and *whenever* they deem appropriate to provide?02:39
jonnorAt the very least.02:39
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* swishy[home] calls it a night02:40
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borcoi hope at least to see some white papers in the next few days02:40
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borcosome mailing lists poping up02:40
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borconcopa: what for? i'm mourning :-/02:41
ncopai bet the person who came up with the name "tizen" does not speak norwegian02:41
ncopaoh sorry02:41
ncopawhat happened?02:41
borcomeego died?02:41
ncopabut a new baby is born?02:42
ncopasorry about meego....02:42
ncopacongrats with tizen02:42
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borcooh. "the king is dead, long live the king" kinda guy, are you? :P02:43
Shapeshifterso what does tizen mean in norwegian then?02:43
ncopai think someone should check up what "tissen" means in nrwegian02:43
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ncopaif norwegian ppl start talk about "tissen"02:43
Shapeshifterisn't it pronounced "Tie"-"Zen"?02:43
nmiroh man. norwegian for penis02:44
borconcopa: very cool. is this a hidden message from intel? :D02:44
ncopaho do you think norwegians will pronounce it?02:44
jonnorncopa: I pronounce it Ti-Zen, with a hard z02:45
borconcopa: still bettern than UpYRS 1.0 or UpYRS 1.5 :D02:46
ncopawell, now you guys know atleast02:46
borconcopa: now we can say i have a 3.5" tizen :D02:46
erboand tizen already have an official song:
borcoor 10" tizen :-o02:47
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ncopatiss = pee02:47
ncopatissen =  the pee'er02:48
borcoi remmember beeg so tiss-ed off only when elop did his anouncement x-(02:49
borcobeeing ...02:49
borcoyou see? i'm so tiss-ed off my spelling is crap :D02:50
ncopayoure tiz-ed off you mean :)02:51
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borcoi wonder how longer will qtcreator and nokia sdk be supported... will we have now something based on eclipse? will we have to go back to vim and emacs and cmd line?02:54
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borcofor this tizen platform i mean...02:55
chouchouneno, please, no Eclipse !!!02:56
* SpeedEvil imagines bash in html5.02:56
slaineWithout much more info I'm having trouble understanding what tizen actually is02:57
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chouchounehopefully we can port and maintain Qt on it, with Novomok support02:57
chouchounethat's all I ask for now ;)02:57
borcochouchoune: what? isn't eclipse fast on your i7 with 16G of RAM? :-P02:57
jdn06JOIN #archlinux02:58
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slaineIt's either WebOS or ChromeOS, I'm not sure yet02:59
slaineperhaps it's both02:59
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borcodoes chromeos work offline?03:01
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chouchouneWebOS I would say03:01
borcoa real os should work in offline mode all the time.03:01
borcoand not force me use google for searches, unless i want to :)03:02
Shapeshifterjdn06: you tell me03:03
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mylove90hi all03:05
mylove90is there someone here from Samsung i can talk to ??03:06
mylove90or it is a devs irc?03:07
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anaZnice mascot:
* Stskeeps looks03:07
TermanaNot too bad I suppose03:08
TermanaNot sure about whether it will grant me 3 wishes however03:08
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mylove90:D so fuuny03:08
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rasteri had to burst out into giggles at that03:10
mylove90that logo is not official right xD03:10
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rasterno idea03:12
rasterbut since its drawn up nicely03:12
raster(like artowkr is good)03:12
rasteri'd say it might be03:12
borcowhat mascot?03:13
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borcoi see no mascot...03:13
rasterthe genie next to the TIZEN03:13
rasterbelow the limo foundation logo/title03:14
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borcohmm... shown only if i enter 'mascot' in the search field... strange...03:14
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borcoraster: it's visible on the home page. adblock probably blocks it in some places...03:16
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dnearyHi raster!03:18
dnearyHow're things in Seoul?03:18
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mylove90so any idea when will first smartphone come with tizen??03:18
SpeedEvil2012 says the release.03:18
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rasterdneary: hey man!03:19
rasterdneary: busy :)03:19
SpeedEvil2012 is the release of the first tizen iteration.03:19
rasterdneary:  hows things in fr?03:19
* SpeedEvil waves at raster.03:19
rasterSpeedEvil:  hey ho03:19
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dnearyraster, Did you get my email a few weeks back?03:20
borcotizen first iteration != tizen first smartphone. right?03:21
mylove90but maybe SDK03:21
rasteryes i did03:21
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SpeedEvilborco: yes03:21
rburtonborco: you'll never get a release date for hardware before its actually ready03:21
rasteri was actually away at the time and i havent caught up on my mailbox backlog yet03:21
rburtonborco: so 2012 will be the release of the platform and sdk03:21
SpeedEvilAnd what rburton said.03:22
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SpeedEvilI would be surprised if there is a open phone before 2140.03:22
SpeedEvilOr do I mean 2014.03:22
rastervery few major manufacutrers release details about a product to ship before its pretty much done interally and they are just doing last spit and polish normally03:22
rasterso u'll have to wait03:23
borcobased on meego's history, the first tizen phone will be produced in 10Ks, released in 2014, just a couple of days before the next great linux based mobile platform is announced :D03:23
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dnearyraster, I heard something was coming, and thought I might have something to offer, but didn't manage to find a good way in03:23
rasterSpeedEvil: by open do u mean drivers too? because if thats what u mean.. then u'll likely not see one before 2140 as u first said :)03:23
rasterdneary:  i know nothing.03:24
rasteri have  my canned response03:24
raster'"Hi. I'm raster. I seem to be the BDFL of E (Enlightenment). I work at Samsung Electronics (Korea) in the Mobile R&D division as principal engineer and use E & EFL for making applications and mobile OS's. No I don't work on Android, Bada, or WP7."'03:24
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* pabs3 keeps thinking TISM instead of tizen03:25
mylove90oh raster you are from Samsung03:25
rastermylove90: thats not news03:25
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dnearymylove90, He's from Australia03:25
dnearyraster, Enjoying the rugby? ;-)03:25
borcook. so now i understand will tizen might use efl :D03:25
slaineLooks like not porting my EFL based STB project to QML was a win so, lol03:25
StskeepsanaZ: port 2081 is api btw, if you want rpm import i have that exported as well03:26
rasteri've been fulltime at samsung since mid last year and was doing consulting before that for about 1.5 years03:26
rasternone of that is news03:26
mylove90so will bada get terminated ????03:26
rastersamsung are using EFL internally03:26
rasterfor building stuff03:26
Zoxcevery other mobile os will die03:26
dnearyraster, Have you ever watches PM question time in the UK?03:26
rasterhave been for a while new - even before i started talking with sammy03:26
rasterdneary:  hmm no. but i have seen snippted from the aus equivalent03:26
dneary"I refer the honourable gentleman to the answer I gave some moments ago" might come in useful03:26
rastermylove90: no idea. doesn't mean yes. doesn't mean no. not my area03:27
rasterand you can bet that i''ll NEVER comment on strategy and product plans etc.03:27
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Termanaraster, do you still hold your Australian citizenship?03:27
rasterall you get out of me is raw tech details.. when and if i choose to let them out03:27
mylove90:D ok thank you :)03:27
rasterTermana: i hold 203:28
rasterdneary:  hahahahaa03:28
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rastermylove90:  for now all you get out of me wrt tizen is my canned statement.03:28
rasterthat pretty much summarizes things03:29
anaZraster: are you running tizen? :)03:29
rasteranything else you can infer at your own leisure - bet it right or wrong :)03:29
rasteranaZ: i'm rubbing it all over my cat. it cleans up the excess fluff pretty well03:29
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rburtondneary: or if people won't stop asking, "I refer you to Arkell v. Pressdram"03:30
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* slaine waves to nedrichards 03:30
dnearyso will Tizen be SBS/DEB based or RPM?03:30
mylove90can we get any beta right now to test on our PCs??03:31
slainedneary: don't start that again03:31
rburtonmylove90: first release in 201203:31
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slainesigh, more abuses of "open"03:31
mylove90oh man long time to wait03:31
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nedrichardsslaine: afternoon03:32
dnearyslaine, I'm not starting it... not my fault ppl keep wanting to merge projects w/ different packaging formats03:32
rburtonslaine: git servers may open before. hope so. dunno.03:32
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slainedneary: why can't people just get behind one packaging format and differentiate in the %post section, lol03:32
slainerburton: fingers crossed03:32
anaZdneary: obs/rpm03:33
rburtonanaZ: check you out and your l33t nick03:33
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* raster throws some gas ont he firs of rpm vs deb and pulls out some popcorn03:33
dnearyanaZ, I guessed OBS03:34
dnearyBut isn't OBS packaging format independent? :)03:34
oilinkiis there a reason that does not allow registering to the site? As there is login, but /user/register gives access denied.03:34
slaineThe SLP stack looked very similar to Moblins03:34
slainewith the addition of EFL03:34
dnearyslaine, Just s/open// and you'll be fine03:34
* SpeedEvil wishes he had a few tens of millions spare for a small phone project.03:34
mylove90well..i got a bada phone and bada 2.0 will come first for sure now and it far away from tizen which we will see its first device in 201403:35
savssome guesses on what's going on with tizen:
rburtonslaine: the important bit about the tizen announcement is "html"03:35
rburtonslaine: so the underlying stack is less relevant03:35
savsdneary: for the record, I think you're wrong, I think MeeGo is deader than dead now03:35
slainerburton: that's very generic though03:35
dnearysavs, Thoughts on WAC in Tizen?03:35
anaZdneary: it is, and tizen will be rpm based03:35
dnearyanaZ, OK, thanks03:35
savsdneary: WAC in Tizen is a useful get-out for the operators03:35
slaineI've been running a HTML based product since 200303:35
rasterSpeedEvil: my previous numbers say $13mil will make u a niche product open phone and get you to profitability (ie self-sustaining)03:35
SpeedEvilraster: yes. Something like that.03:35
slainethe underlying OS and infrastructure is still very important03:35
SpeedEvilraster: Much less, and you can't be niche, as you're not going to get the hardware cost low enough.03:36
slainemeeting, bbs03:36
SpeedEvilraster: you're 'crazed open-source wack-jobs' phone.03:36
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SpeedEvilAnd while wacking Jobs is fun, it's not an actual buisness model.03:36
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savsright, everyone stop talking, I need to go make a cup of tea ;-)03:36
rasterSpeedEvil:  yeah. you'd maybe sell 100-200k units per annum03:37
rasteronce rolling03:37
rasterthats all03:37
SpeedEvilraster: Which for nokia would be a complete fail.03:37
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rasterand int he scheme of making phones.. thats like a major fail product03:37
SpeedEvilI'm idly wondering if one of the smaller chinese/... makers might not try this at some point.03:37
SpeedEvilThough the number who care about open source seems negative.03:38
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SpeedEvilnegative infinity.03:38
SpeedEvil(in china)03:38
ScriptRipperdneary, OBS has no internal packaging format in addition to .deb or .rpm03:38
SpeedEvil'but windows is free, I have the DVD'03:38
ScriptRipperdneary, it uses the packagers of the underlying distribution as is03:39
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srikanth_rst1So, most of meego guys already #tizen :)03:40
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NIN101I wonder how open it will be in terms of root access and security frameworks.04:01
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Kr3m1inJust got the email today - Tizen looks awesome and I haven't even seen the code yet!04:05
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NIN101It gives me at least hope for linux on mobile devices.04:05
Kr3m1inDoesn't android already accomplish that?04:06
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Kr3m1inI can't wait, it's like Christmas for developers when software platforms are announced04:07
Kr3m1inNIN101: Aren't you going to say 'haha' now? Lol04:07
Shapeshifteryeah, keep on creating a hype when there's nothing to be hyped yet04:07
jonnorNo. A software platform being available might be Christmas, but announcements are just talk.04:07
jonnorAn in the mobile world, a platform being available means devices supporting it shipping.04:08
Kr3m1innever looked at it from that angle04:08
* SpeedEvil thinks of the Futurama Santa Clause.04:08
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Kr3m1inguess im thinking about desktop apps eh?04:09
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Kr3m1inthis may be off topic, but anyone know of an good irc client for macs?04:13
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Kr3m1ini just tried colloquy and its giving me problems :/04:13
rasterKr3m1in: android is only linux if you only think linux is just a kernel.04:13
torarne[home]Kr3m1in: Adium04:14
Kr3m1inraster: sorry if im a little confused on the mobile side of things :)04:14
Kr3m1inraster: I'm learning inch by inch lol04:14
rasterandroid, as an OS is NOTHING like all the "linux distros"04:14
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raster(ubuntu, debian, fedora, redhat, opensuse, blah blah blah)04:15
rastertotally nothing like it04:15
rasterits abasically a new different os there04:15
rasterit may as well be vxworks04:15
rasteror wince04:15
rasteror macos04:15
rasteror some other os that only HAPPENs to have recycled a linux kernel as its kernel bit04:15
savsKr3m1in: colloquy works fine for me … what problems are you seeing?04:15
Kr3m1inoh old kernel on adnroid?04:16
Kr3m1ini didn't know that04:16
rastereverything else above the kernel is different and foreign to anyone who knows/uses/develops for linux04:16
rasteri didn't say old04:16
Kr3m1inim just assuming lol04:16
rasterthe myth that android == linux is just that04:16
rastera myth04:16
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rasterUNLESs you are a total kernel purist and believe linux ONLY ever can refer to the kernel04:17
Kr3m1intalk to me in three or hour hours when im awake and im a lot easier to talk to lol04:17
henaandroid is linux just as much as ubuntu is linux04:17
SpeedEvilTo paraphrase RMS.04:17
rasterand that everyone (90%+ of people) who use linux as a way to refer to what is really "gnu/linux"04:17
SpeedEvilAndroid is linux, it's just not GNU//linux.04:17
raster(and finally android gave rms's cursade for people to use gnu/linux a real purpose as until then there was no point using it)04:17
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elcasetSpeedEvil: good point.04:18
Kr3m1in+1 on that04:18
rasterhena:  then you are one of the 10% who use linux only to refer to kernel04:18
SpeedEvilIn some cases, just the kernel is of use.04:18
SpeedEvilI've used a 2.2 kernel (only) as a router.04:18
SpeedEvilA properly configured 2.2 kernel will act like a router, even when it's panicked due to init dying04:19
foobarswhat difference does it make? as a developer, I can use many linux features and tools on Android fine. it's essentially linux04:19
foobarsand the end users couldn't care less what the underlying OS is, whether "pure" linux or android's variant or whatever04:19
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rasterfoobars: when memset(ptr, val, cont); insists on always setting memory to 0 instead of val04:21
Kr3m1inah screw it :/ ill just use freenode04:21
rasterie lets not even follow the standard c lib specs.04:22
foobarsand that's a problem for users how?04:22
rasterlets have a that lasy i checked had a limit of 64 libs it could link04:22
rasterif your app (or lib) uses > 64 libs.. you're sunk04:22
rasternot a problem on "gnu/linux"04:22
foobarsdiscussions about technical purity could go on to the end of the earth. but "Shipping is a Feature"04:22
rasterits a problem for developers writing apps for that platform04:23
Kr3m1in+1 raster04:23
rasterif its linux or not is irrelevant to users04:23
foobarsI use the Android SDK.. works great. for edge cases, I'm sure you'll find problems in any platform04:23
rasterthey dont care if its windows phone, windows 8, iOs, osx, android... they just dont care04:23
rasteras long as it looks pretyt and does what they want04:24
rastersome dont even care about pretty04:24
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Kr3m1inraster: they want an easy to use gui, but if thats what u mean i agree04:24
raster"does what they want"04:24
Kr3m1ingive me a few minutes to finish my coffee...04:25
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Kr3m1inah gotta go soon guys04:26
Kr3m1inill be back04:26
Kr3m1inlooking forward to future discussion04:27
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jstaniekhi, I know no vendor that lacks big app store and wouldn't want to get more apps virtually for free, so see
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jstaniekSo Qt can be at least an addon if native libs are not locked out.04:30
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Anssi138they are really careful not saying QT04:41
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annmaAnssi138: Qt04:43
TermanaEveryone noticed how the Tizen site layout is just the MeeGo site layout modified right?04:44
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jstaniekannma: if there is open governance in tizen then Qt can be efinitelly a component assuming there is partner to maintain it, if there is no open governance, tizen would be like limo, risky association of business partners and competitors this time with linux foundation sticker04:47
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chouchounejstaniek: Novomok looks like wanting to maintain Qt for Tizen04:49
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jstaniekchouchoune: yes, that would mean layers on top of qt, e.g. qml componenets, Qt Mobility ports for tizen, etc. Not Qt itself which already has maintainers04:51
chouchouneyes, of course04:52
chouchouneTizen is already hitting mass market newspapers04:52
chouchouneLe Monde in France04:52
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jstanieksomeone would say it's a 'vs' thing: use html5 for 'code once copy/paste and hack everywhere' or 'code once deploy everywhere' - it's hard to eblieve LF would not enable a choice. If it won't I will consider calling them ECMA of the linux world.04:52
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* jstaniek got some domain this morning ;)04:53
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Anssi138jstaniek, difficult to say, maybe more information keeps flowing in near future. i basically guess that html5 is common denominator and its plugged as needed with 3rd party NDK APIs04:55
savsjstaniek: limo's problem was not a lack of open governance, it was a lack of open code and open development ...04:56
jstaniekSo far I see all Intel's alliances that interested me somewhat help ARM. Alliance with Nokia, heavy ARM user; alliance with google, the same; now alliance with Samsung. And in the area where intel is strong today, netbooks, notebooks: it does NOT partner with anyone but MS (IIRC Tizen is not expected for these devices). Interesting.05:01
savsjstaniek: intel's long term plan will be tizen on mobile on intel.05:01
jstaniekDon't forget, Samsung needs OS and the stack that runs on ARM. With or without intels money.05:01
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jstanieksavs: agree on limo05:02
Anssi138jstaniek, i see it more like guiding from arm to the x86 side.05:05
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dpamiohi everyone.05:09
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dpamioquick question, is there any OS screenshot for the different form factors? where can I find a guideline of how applications UI should look on this new OS?05:10
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araujodpamio, the announcement was just few hours ago ........... I think it is still long way to see some screenies for it05:13
jstaniekdpamio:   ;)05:14
dpamiook, but there shall be some development already done, right?05:14
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araujodpamio, no idea ... at least not publicly announced yet05:14
chouchouneFor those who use native code in their applications, the Tizen SDK will include a native development kit. We will open the entire Tizen software stack, from the core OS up through the core applications and polished user interfaces.05:14
araujodpamio, they talk about releasing code/docs in the upcoming weeks though ,05:15
chouchouneNative development kit ?05:15
chouchounewhy not Qt ?05:15
SpeedEvilMaybe that is the native development kit05:15
jstaniekdpamio: the merged projects have been using these UIs: GTK+, EFL, Qt/Qt Quick, Clutter05:15
chouchouneI hope so05:15
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jstaniekchouchoune: because it's too fast? look at who are founders of the new organization - hardware vendors ;)05:16
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jstaniek'Membership in most project teams (Release Engineering, QA, Program Management, etc.) is invite-only'05:18
borcowhere's my linkedin tizen group? none yet?05:18
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jstaniekbut '_some_ middleware development teams will be open to participation on a merit basis'05:19
chouchounehow does MeeGo work concerning Project teams ?05:19
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Stskeepsnot really05:20
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Stskeepsso at least theyre honest05:21
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khertanor they aren't and it could be worse than what they say05:23
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chouchouneon the other hand, it's good, we can go and tell Intel "I'va maid a website once, I know HTML, hire me ..."05:25
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timakimahopefully the sdk is not notepad05:26
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henayeah, emacs ftw!05:26
tabaskojust curious, what tixen -name stands for?05:27
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jstaniek“sixteen” - indeed most sixteens that are able to program do this in html/js...05:34
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dpamioactually, Qt is outside of the equation, right? apps will be based on HTML/WAC05:37
Stskeepsoutside but probably not impossible to add for a vendor05:38
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drj_croon which distro will be based tizen?05:39
araujodrj_cro, "a lot of things will be the same as they were in the MeeGo project" ......... but not sure if that answers your question05:41
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drj_croaraujo: so..wait and we will see :)05:43
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* pabs3 loves the openwashing on this tism thing05:44
acidspunkI wonder if this will get ported to the n9.05:44
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ChanceI'd like to see it on the N900....since I have one of those and not the n905:45
acidspunkyeah me too.05:46
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Chanceany one have a guess on how different this will be from meego?05:49
araujodrj_cro, right, I guess "wait" is the only thing we can do for now05:49
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palisvWill Tizen continue use and support Connman and ofono?05:49
araujoand here you have the Tizen logo05:52
MilhouseSamsung now paying the Microsoft tax on Android:
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MilhouseI'd suggest it could use Tizen to avoid both, but it's already got Bada. Must be very confusing working for Samsung mobile.05:53
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jstaniekAccording to Intel, Qt apps will run on Tizen. "So for those developers who invested in MeeGo for netbooks your apps will continue on Tizen netbooks."
MilhouseDid netbook use Qt, or GTK?06:01
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chouchouneMilhouse: Cluter I think06:02
MilhouseOK, so not Qt?06:02
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Sagewell, netbook was meego compliant and compliance included qt as well so then Qt is supported in tizen as well as people could have done qt apps for netbook, right?06:05
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Milhousehope so, sounds good. wonder why nomovok are offering a qt-enabled build of tizen in that case.06:06
houlwow thats a lot of people already ;-)06:06
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TermanaSage, let's be honest. MeeGo compliant just meant whatever everyone wanted it to mean for that week...06:07
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houlim wondering how different or similar this project is/will be to boot2gecko06:09
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ivarelahi all06:11
ivarelai'm interested in the proccess to localize Tizen... and translate it..06:12
vgrademailing list conf email does not work06:12
araujoAs far as I know, there are still some bugs to work out in the web services vgrade06:13
araujoalso for registering accounts06:13
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ivarelado you know where translations are?06:13
araujowe need to wait06:13
araujoivarela, announcement of tizen was just few hours ago ..... we don't know where many things are atm ;)06:13
ivarelawell, i'm interested in translations... so i think I would help..06:14
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houltizen wont be open-open til first quarter of 2012 so u can wait :-)06:17
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Greatgibhoul: So, this wouls be a new android with closed dev and just "open source" versions?06:19
borcoi wonder how difficult would be for people to ignore what intel & co does, and even what linux f says, and continue with meego06:20
borcoafter all, meego is open source, right?06:20
borcoboycot tizen :)06:20
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umagopabs3: looooool,06:20
borcomaybe tizen will go openoffice way, and we all end with libre office :)06:21
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pabs3borco: better grab the code before the repos go away :)06:21
araujoI don't think so06:21
borcomaybe we're all putting the wrong questions...06:21
JMcAI (as "merely" an end user) would rather people take what has been done on maemo/meego/etc. and "port" it to the new...get the best of both worlds06:21
umagono doubt, and who choose this name?! Tizen -..- seems a power ranger based name06:21
Lampus_Hmm.. Hello06:22
borcotizen, the intel demizen ...06:22
araujoAccording to the articles, we could see code/docs soon in the upcoming weeks, so I think they will try to make it open as soon as possible... just in the first quarter of 2012 is planned the first release ... doesn't mean they won't open the code until then though06:22
miegowill there be a Tizen conference with free netbook and Guiness beer? In that case, I'm in06:22
JMcAumago: I think it ends up being pronounced disturbingly close to "teasing", which some might consider appropriate06:22
ChanceI just hope all this stuff is open sourced...I'd hate to have some of it off-limits..06:23
Chancethat would suck...06:23
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ChanceIf it happens we ought to fork it...and replace all the closed source stuff...06:24
Chanceenough of this android like silliness..06:24
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clbr1tizen means "teen" in hungary
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Lampus_One question. If I have phone with working linux kernel from android, what I should do to porting MeeGo on this device? Some docs?06:25
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owner_fooi am not suprised intel dropped meego - when will code be available from tizen?06:34
owner_foowhat build system do you use?06:34
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jstaniekprobably cmake06:36
umagonot sure... first quarter of 2012 I think06:36
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araujoowner_foo, according to the main web site, we could see code/docs in the upcoming weeks06:39
pielstickfirst time hear06:40
npmIs there an official "drop" of MeeGo? what about the big-name laptop manufacturers recent MeeGo netbook releases??06:40
araujopielstick, because it is very new , just announced few hours ago :)06:41
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owner_fooi just hope the dev process is more open than meego - i am mostly interested in the code as a whole06:42
pielsticki shall sit here couple days06:43
pielstickwill watch06:43
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vmlemon_It sounds like LiMo with a new coat of paint - so it probably won't be very open to non-corporate contributors (unless they prove otherwise).06:44
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cpburnzDoes anyone else think that using HTML5 (and thus javascript) for creating Tizen applications is a bad idea? It sounds like a browser OS which will not scale well (like using a Java VM for limited hardware)07:01
SpeedEvilThis is not the case.07:02
javispedro"scale" is a bad word here07:02
SpeedEvilIn 2041, the hardware will be quite ready.07:02
SpeedEvilMore seriously.07:02
cpburnzI guess I mean, HTML5 and other web standards work great for web pages, but not for applications07:02
SpeedEvilJavascript - with JIT - has issues - but it can be moderately performant.07:02
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SpeedEvilAnd to a degree, it doesn't matter.07:03
SpeedEvilFor example - if the screen is on, then the CPU being active at 20% of its maximum load has almost no extra impact over if the app was more efficient and used 2%07:03
Greatgibcpburnz: that system exists, it is called chromeOS... based on webkit...07:04
javispedrothe question is whether html/wac will be relegated to a role of main UI toolkit, as QML was, while allowing app logic in C++, ala WebOS.07:04
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javispedro(and ala Qt Quick)07:04
cpburnzI know and it was meant for netbooks (if I recall correctly) which sounds like a terrible idea to me07:04
cpburnzEverything's in the "cloud" and what happens when the "cloud" is down07:04
khertancpburnz: or when you are in the metro :)07:05
crazedpsycSo.. just found, thought I'd stop in, since I have a tablet and need to get rid of android.. So how are things in the Tizen world?07:05
Stskeepserr.. no07:05
cpburnzIf html/wac will simply be the presentation layer that wouldn't be so bad07:05
jstaniekto believe in html/wac you have to first see how standards compliant is the browser07:06
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hyoyoungit's already made07:21
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SeoZand many people..07:23
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hyoyoungmaybe also intel ppl07:23
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wmaronenot many07:28
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wmaronethere's still some 400 in #meego07:28
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SeoZoh ok :)07:29
crazedpsychey, the first people are usually the most willing to spread and help.. :)07:29
wmaroneto a point07:30
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wmaroneI have yet to see any reason to help this new conglom-o07:30
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chouchounecrazedpsyc: or the most worried by the new direction and on the track to leave it07:31
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crazedpsycwell, I need and OS for my tablet, meego is contaminated by qt, my tablet OS is nowhere near stable, so I have to find something to play with.. ;)07:32
dnearywmarone, That's because you see it as one thing, when in fact it is many things07:32
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wmaronedneary: I see yet another shift that casts much into the fire. Along with the ridiculous "Html 5 apps!" nonsense. Hard to be optimistic these days.07:34
hyoyoungtizen tech steering group knows that well07:34
hyoyoungthey just emphasis html 507:34
hyoyoungtizen will suport native apps07:35
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niqtwhen will possible subscrie to tizen site? when doc? what's nattive sdk?07:35
chouchounehyoyoung: yes, but what will we be able to use for native apps ?07:36
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wmaronechouchoune: gtk+/efl seems to be the toolkits of the day, Qt being run out of town07:36
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hyoyoungniqt: in tizen web site, 1st quarter 201207:36
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chouchouneun truc base sur SeedKit sinon ?07:37
araujoniqt, doc/code could be available in the upcoming weeks, SDK with first release in the Q1 201207:37
niqtin this time buy iphone. I think is bed start07:38
chouchounemmmhhh, why am I talking in french ?07:38
chouchounesomething with SeedKit ?07:38
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kismeter the first release of Tizen and its SDK in the 1st quarter of 2012 is just expectation. I think it would be delayed07:40
SeoZthat's normal.07:40
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chouchounethey can't do something solid before, that's normal07:40
crazedpsycwmarone: don't forget clutter/mx.. that's pretty awesome, especially for mobile platforms07:41
chouchounethe main question would be if there would be some code and pre-releases before07:41
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kismeteranybody know when the source code or doc would be opened07:42
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araujokismeter, upcoming weeks07:42
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chouchounearaujo: that's from a safe source ?07:43
araujochouchoune, from tizen.org07:43
araujo"We will post additional details about this project in the coming weeks, including the code, developer documentation, and more. "07:43
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kismeteraraujo: really? great07:44
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eballetboAnyone knows which platform builder would be selected for tizen ? Maybe yocto ? I think Intel has dedicated a lot of efforts on yocto.07:46
rburtoneballetbo: OBS07:47
araujoRPM+OBS seems to be the way07:47
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Sazpaimonso will it be based on redhat or is it just going to use yum as a package manager07:54
k-sdifferent channel, different name. Same people ;-)07:54
rburtonSazpaimon: why redhat?07:54
wmaronelike meego I expect it is not based on any existing distro07:54
rburtonSazpaimon: i suspect the core will be a mix of slp and meego07:54
k-slet's hope meego ;-)07:55
k-ssystemd ftw07:55
Sazpaimoni always thought meego used a baselayout based on fedora07:55
rburtononce upon a time, many moons ago, bits of it were taken from fedora07:56
rburtonbut thats only because you'd be a fool to package gcc and so on from scratch07:56
rburtonother bits were taken from suse07:56
crazedpsycI thought meego was based on mandriva... :P07:57
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wookHello, i have several questions about Tizen :)07:58
wookFirst would be, why membership is invite-only?07:59
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k-scrazedpsyc: madriva... who uses that? :-)08:00
crazedpsyck-s: I really don't know :)08:01
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wookOk, byes ;)08:04
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k-sany pointers to the tech details of tizen?08:07
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k-safter all I guess everyone in this channel is here for such a thing :-P08:07
* SpeedEvil is here for the cucumber sandwitches.08:08
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k-sSpeedEvil: gimme some as well08:09
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k-shungry... lunch time here in brazil08:09
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khertancat /dev/random seems to the right pointer08:10
khertans/to/to be08:10
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khertanand the roadmap seems to be here : cat /dev/null08:10
Sazpaimonso now I'm in #maemo #meego and #tizen08:10
k-skhertan: cat /dev/zero is the correct one ;-)08:11
* SpeedEvil is also in #mer, and #openmoko08:11
k-sSazpaimon: time to zap you stuff08:11
khertanSazpaimon: you forgot #harmattan08:11
k-sOMG o.O08:11
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khertanKindle Fire <<< oh interesting08:13
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Sazpaimonkhertan, it's very easy to forget #harmattan08:14
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Sazpaimonthe next OS should be based on brainfuck08:19
Sazpaimoncalling it right now08:19
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k-skhertan: yeah, checked out kindle fire:
k-skhertan: game changer :-S08:24
wmarone$200 for an OMAP4 based system08:27
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k-sno mention of Google, Android or even OS... after all for an user what matter is the contents08:28
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k-sthat's the game changer... you get easier access to Amazon08:28
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k-sgood to users, excellent to Amazon08:29
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k-spabs3: i guess that step is the easiest one ;-)08:29
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k-spabs3: i mean, if it works out. To release a phone is matter of few months08:29
pabs3pretty horrid battery life for a tablet08:30
wmaronepabs3: get bigger pockets!08:31
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wmaronethough this would probably just end up like my nook color, idle 90% of the time08:31
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BluesLeethis must be a joke ...08:46
k-sBluesLee: what?08:47
wmaronenope, no joke08:47
BluesLeek-s: nothing :-)08:48
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k-s is interesting solution. Set a proxy with all good features of new http (pipeline, keep alive, ...) and have it to do the dirty work like caching dns, getting files...08:51
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k-swith the bonus that it can easily cache their own served stuff08:51
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k-smachine learning: "oh, we'll monitor EVERY PAGE YOU READ, EVERY CLICK YOU MAKE... but it's good because we'll prefetch these for you" :-) How nice and kind08:53
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AuriumHi, i'm reading but i can't find a repository link or a developer documentation. Where can i found those? Thanks!09:05
aleksander_mAurium, try in
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jonnorAurium: "We will post additional details about this project in the coming weeks, including the code, developer documentation, and more." - frontpage09:06
Auriumaleksander_m: hum? MeeGo is already a HTM5+CSS+JS based interface?09:06
BluesLeeAurium: its a vicious circle, you have to find the starting point yourself09:07
Auriumjonnor, yeah... but i can't wait :-)09:07
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araujojonnor, someone should add that in the topic :P09:09
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Stskeepsmoo mikeleib09:11
mikeleibhi Stskeeps !09:11
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Guest85819We expect the first release of Tizen and its SDK in the first quarter of 2012.09:23
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jonnorThose who want to play with something in the meantime can probably check out WAC09:28
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khertan_or :)09:30
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newbie007 / seem to be down09:31
khertan_not here09:31
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newbie007I take that back, https is down was blocked by my company as "Adult / Mature content"09:34
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newbie007I take it this ( is also not associated with Tizen the operating system09:35
SpeedEvilHe's the key architect.09:36
newbie007please tell me if you are joking09:37
newbie007no insult intended to whoever this youtube user is09:37
newbie007we sarcasm font09:37
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newbie007* we need a sarcasm font09:38
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AsdfasdfSo who's excited and who just things intel has blown away the last of their platform credibility?09:39
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newbie007I think intel will give tizen a couple of months at least09:40
khertan_or less09:41
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khertan_Asdfasdf: lol you really need a poll for this ?09:41
khertan_Asdfasdf: most of us will probably stay here to see how they successfully kill a true open source mobile os09:42
newbie007I dont see how you can secure a html based OS, any single css or javascript file could compromise the system09:42
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dzigibauhey, what is code-base for tizen? maemo, or meego? will there be open development? git? source codes? can we expect full root devices on it?09:44
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newbie007so far the code base isn't large enough to justify a repository. It goes somehting like this  <html....09:46
jonnordiegobz: "We will post additional details about this project in the coming weeks, including the code, developer documentation, and more." - frontpage09:46
jonnordzigibau: ^09:46
japerryoh man this is awesome... it comes in line with what we've been doing09:46
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japerryHTML5+ node.js works much better for the mobile and car platform09:46
pabs3dzigibau: seems like the only thing one can expect is waiting09:46
dzigibaujonnor, thanks, its like you don't know yet? announcing something that will be announced is bad Apple PR :)09:47
SazpaimonI think we're forgetting the most important question regarding this transition09:47
Sazpaimonbigger than anything else09:47
Sazpaimonwhat will happen to our meego character avatars09:47
mikeleibwon't somebody thing of the avatars?09:47
zuhnewbie007: Any single binary can compromise systems, the question is how to prevent it from running (and the answer is simple: trustworthy source)09:47
vmlemon_They'll probably C&D you for abusing their trademarks - or something like that. ;)09:47
SazpaimonWhat will happen to Stskeeps' little red penguin09:48
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jstaniekbtw, who owns MeeGo trademarks? who owns Tizen trademarks?09:49
dzigibauhah, I already see gnome3 on it ;)09:49
newbie007zuh I suppose that is technically correct, however imagine that a mouseover on a desktop could change a css file which moves the desktop off the screen and replces it with some other content.. seems too easy to accomplish09:49
SpeedEvilnewbie007: Assuming that there are no remotely accessale data driven vulnerabilities09:49
Sazpaimonjstaniek, linux foundation owns the MeeGo trademark09:49
jonnorjstaniek: linux foundation for the first, would expect the same for tizn09:49
Sazpaimonis it too soon to say that lcuk is rolling in his grave right now?09:50
khertan_LF are not just selling stickers ?09:51
zuhnewbie007: My point is just that "html" UI:s are not inherently insecure by some magical attribute. It's just that the usual source of getting a "html" UI is uncontrolled wilderness.09:53
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newbie007zuh look at the web as it is now, it is far too simple for a website to link to an advertizment, the ad is legit for a couple of years then starts serving malware through some backdoor. --- except that there need not be a backdoor, now the malware need only the ability to create or manipulate a single dom element09:55
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jeremalso, what about performance? I've never seen a "html5" app on a smartphone that performs well09:56
jeremlook at the sencha stuff... horrible09:56
jonnorI don't think you can assume that third parties will be able to access the runtime the desktop environment is in. Or, seeing as there is no code available, that there is a web runtime involved in the desktop environment at all09:57
vmlemon_So, they're just dumping the source code for a legacy dumbphone OS over the wall, and calling it "open"?09:58
newbie007"<scr" + "ipt>"09:58
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newbie007I'd like to see it unfold09:59
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zuhnewbie007: Yes, that's exactly what I mean. It's very simple on web, where the content is not controlled. There's no reason to allow UI's to link to ads (at least not without user consent, offloading the responsibility).09:59
zuhOr to any remote, unauthorized content10:00
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zuhnewbie007: To turn the question around, why do you trust that your IRC client isn't sending your personal files to a remote server? Because you got it somewhere you trust (I hope), not from some random website.10:07
newbie007the web has a history of serving ads, malware, tracking cookies. Baseing an OS on this technology shouldn't be taken lightly10:08
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zuhSo binary viruses and malware doesn't exist?-)10:19
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newbie007no one has said that.  What I am saying is that it would be esaier for a malware or pop-up ad to take over the system. Because the desktop is not a browser10:21
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zuhI guess that's fair to say, since writing a piece of Javascript is easier than writing code and compiling it.10:23
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piercenewbie007: the browser itself doesn't have any more access to the system than anything else, it's just a normal browser10:29
piercenewbie007: it's just that the rendering system (webkit) is also used to render all the other apps on the system as well10:29
newbie007Is there an OS at this point?10:30
newbie007I can't as that url is blocked from my company as "Adult mature content"10:30
newbie007another user here was asking where the repository is, I am curious as well10:31
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piercenewbie007: and should be going online pretty soon, which should look just like the repo.meego and download.meego10:32
piercenot sure if pretty soon means 2 hours or 2 weeks, but I'm pretty sure it will be less than 2 months :-)10:33
newbie007how much of it is meego renamed?  I was thinking it was based on another set of work10:33
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Khertan_webchatRST38h: you can also run native Qt (QWidget) Application on Harmattan, they are just unthemed and so useless ;)10:33
Khertan_webchatoups ... double pos10:34
piercenewbie007: a lot of the internals are the same, it's really the UI stack that has been most affected10:34
jeremwill there be support for native apps?10:35
newbie007I was interested in meego mostly for hildon-desktop, I guess that has lost some steam10:35
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piercejerem: not sure if the markets will sell native apps, but ya, native apps are possible10:36
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piercejerem: most of the apps on the system now are native apps, but I think they are trying to focus developers towards developing with WAC10:37
zuhpierce: If it's webkit, is it a custom port or some existing one?10:39
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piercezuh: nothing custom  I think they are still using 1.2 though, but trying to move to webkit210:41
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rwmanи чо вы туд все ждёте? =)10:42
jeremstill, I wonder if there are any app developers left that are stupid enough to trust tizen, after the whole moblin-maemo-meego-tizen ride10:42
rwmanjerem: what d you mean by "trust"?10:43
zuhpierce: Yes but if Qt is not included it's not QtWebKit. I doubt it would be webkit-gtk. Mac&win are obvious "no"s. So I guess that leaves only chrome?10:43
jeremrwman, believe that the OS will ever take off and appear on a notable number of devices and continue to be supported and developed10:44
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zuhpierce: Or, nevermind, samsung has been active on the EFL port so I guess this is case closed?-)10:45
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piercezuh: those projects are for embedding webkit renderers into higher level window managers, I think they are using the enlightment bindings
piercezuh: seeing as how rasterman works at samsung10:46
jonnorjerem: Never trust promises from companies. Wait until things actually happen. It is less of a ride that way10:46
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zuhYeah, is pretty strong evidence :)10:47
jeremjonnor: right, but that would be a long wait. it's not that I'm interested in developing anything for tizen, but I wonder what incentive there is for possible developers.10:49
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halsteadStskeeps, pm?10:49
piercejerem: the whole point is that you don't need to develop for tizen, just develop WAC apps and they will be fully supported by tizen10:50
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jeremI know, but I don't see WAC succeeding, really10:50
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jonnorjerem: The only real incentive I know for mobile developers are devices which one can deploy on.10:50
jeremIn fact, today I heard about it for the first time, ever10:50
piercejerem: have you looked at phonegap?10:52
Stskeepshaluhm?, sure10:52
jeremit is a piece of shit10:52
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Stskeepshalstead: sure10:53
piercemeh, it has issues, but I think it's pretty fancy :-)10:53
jeremI think going for HTML5+js for apps is a bad idea, basically10:54
pierceI think I've had to learn enough UI toolkits for this lifetime :-)  Yes javascript is a pain, but at least HTML and javascript were designed for UIs, as opposed to languages built for scripting, OS internals, etc10:55
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piercehow much do you really miss your 10 line GTK setup sequences before you could do anything :-)10:57
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jonnorIn non-trivial software that hardly matters10:58
npmhtml and javascript were designed to make pretty paragraphs. everything else is a hack afterthought10:58
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jeremafter these few lines, I am able to trivially create functional widget layouts, at least. html+css isn't suitable for that as-is. that's why we have these big frameworks.10:58
npmreally stupid direction being taken10:59
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jeremand from what I've seen from WAC, it doesn't provide anything for this. the FAQ just says you can use sencha or whatever else you want. what a mess!10:59
csdbso anyone know what tizen will look underneath ? i.e. a bunch of linux packages that are built in the open, or something else ?10:59
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piercecsdb: ya, pretty similar to how meego looked on the inside, just a stripped down linux with some pretty launchers11:01
jonnorjerem: I hope tizen will provide a default toolkit which will give good integration11:01
jeremwhat would make FAR more sense then this html5 crap: introduce a standardized runtime environment. a bit similar to openmobile acl.11:01
jonnorand still allow people to use something else, if they so prefer11:01
npmlike android11:01
piercecsdb: package building will be done in the public, using standard packages11:02
jeremnpm, yes, but cross-platform. not easy, but doable and a lot cleaner.11:02
* csdb breathes a sigh of relief11:02
csdbpierce, obs ?11:02
piercecsdb: yes11:02
* csdb breathes another sigh of relief11:02
npmwell that's a pipe dream ... five years from now, they'll be at where android is today11:02
jeremnpm, think of J2ME, but with less suckage11:02
jonnorjerem: I don't see why one cannot have a standardized runtime on top of HTML and JS11:03
npmby reinveinting the wheel and trhrowing out the bathwater every 2 years11:03
csdbwhen will it start showing up?11:03
npmwhen it takes 4 for a platform to become useable11:03
jeremjonnor, I guess performance will be stellar?11:03
piercenpm: welcome to open source, turns out android and tizen don't need to compete, they can build off eachothers improvements11:03
jeremJS is slow, despite all the optimization browsers have implemented in the last few years11:04
piercenpm: tizen just has more of an upstreamability focus11:04
npmit has a chase developers away focus11:04
jeremimplementing a huge runtime completely in JS definitely asks for bad performance :)11:04
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piercejerem: that's not really true anymore though11:08
npmsure it is. if I have 10000 object model in javascript, how well will it perform?11:08
piercejerem: javascript was slow in the past because it never needed to be fast, but in the past couple years things have gotten crazy11:08
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piercenpm: that's all up to the renderer, and webkit plays really well with opengl11:10
npmjavascript works fine for small datamodels ( ). But it takes serious rocket science to get 100K objects
npmit has nothing to do with renderer. if i have to interpret 100K objects, transform their data, and spew it out in some new format, that's going to take time in JS11:11
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npmit has to do with memory, size of JS objects etc11:11
npmJS objects are somewhat heavy11:11
npmcertainly not designed for compex datamodels...11:12
piercecompare to QT objects, or any other high level development environment11:12
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npmqt objects are smaller, faster, better11:13
pierceHTML5+js has amazing performance reletive to anythign else out there11:13
npmand i can create datamodels in C, not JS for efficiency11:13
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csdbarm and intel support as meego also ?11:14
npmpeformance at what size? my browser is huge with a few ajax apps running11:14
piercenpm: have you tried that chrome browser that google programmed?11:15
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npmbut the thing is i don't want to be forced into one set of tools. If I want C++ for performance then I get it with Qt. If I want rapid prototypeing w/ QML I get that too. and i can go from prototype to prioduction./11:15
Stskeepscsdb, arm yes [B11:15
npmwith html5 you are just plain stuck11:15
npmand you hace to rely on html5's limited media capabilities11:15
npmwhich limits multimedia apps11:16
jonnorso write Qt apps :)11:16
csdbStskeeps, good to hear11:16
npmpierce: yes, I hate chrome. it's bloated and slow. i use firefox11:16
piercecsdb: remember that samsung is one of the largest manufacturers of arm chips in the world :-)11:16
piercecsdb: they make the iphones, and recent nexus phones etc11:17
wmaronesamsung does not "make the iphones"11:18
npmalso lets say i want to create an app with protected (DRM) content for video or audio. how will HTML5 work for that?11:18
wmaronethey supplied a handful of components11:18
csdbpierce, yes. I'm just taking this all in after waking up to the news that meego is gone. Just making sure that all body-parts are still present..11:18
wmaronerealize the insanity of DRM, and stop loudly stating you hate your customers?11:19
wmarone ;)11:19
piercewmarone: +111:19
npmdo i get to blast a hole for the decrypted content in the webview? and of course that won't be integrated with the webview. it's just a mess.11:19
piercenpm: we can let W3C figure that part out :-D11:20
npmthe insanity of DRM is potentially paying customers for my services.11:20
npmso you're basing a standard w/ essential functionality as TBD by the w3c?11:20
wmaronenpm: wait, you have to coerce customers to buy from you?11:20
npmlike I said, maybe in 5 years it'll be ready11:20
npmno the customers want a DRM solution and I'd like to build it for them11:21
jonnornpm: if you want to change things, there are much better ways to do it than this. If you just want to complain, please go somewhere else.11:21
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wmaronenpm: oh, so you implement customer-hating tech ;)11:21
npmwell how about answerijng a simple use-case question that'll come up in any tv/tablet/handheld situation? -- how is DRM'd media going to be hanfled by html5?11:22
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npmfor exampe on the playstation:
piercenpm: right now all the DRM specs are coming from content providers11:23
wmaroneheh, content providers11:23
wmaronedoes it include blinders and coin-operated shutters over the eyes?11:24
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piercenpm: even if someone came up with some amazing brilliant DRM scheme, it would be useless, because none of the companies involved with tizen are content providers11:24
npmso how would that platform be used for typical mobile usage, which would include paid content dls11:25
npmand since that should be a base-case use-case, how much rearch would be needed once DRM is desired.11:25
npmfor example I see that tizen is planned for "TV" apps. How??11:26
wmaroneI say people who want DRM have to implement it all themselves11:26
piercewmarone: that's what they end up doing anyway, they don't trust anyone else11:26
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npmwell at least w/ meego i could make my own DRM gstreamer plug. WHere would DRM fit in tizen, architecturally?11:26
npmbasically the same arch as used by sony for their playstation11:27
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piercenpm: native apps are possible, likely a custom media plugin11:28
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npmwhat about just actually using all the goodies that are already in Linux. Like gstreamer?11:29
piercenpm: DRM is really more of a problem for lawyers to figure out, implementations are trivial, obtaining distribution contracts is hard11:29
jeremthey are possible... but are they supported?11:29
npmit's a problem because if the platform doesn't provide a clear picture, people will just use google tv11:29
k-spierce: is the system part the same (connman, ofono, systemd...)?11:30
wmaronenpm: I love artifical quality degredation11:30
jeremfrom what I understood so far it sounded like they are possible, but you REALLY, REALLY should use the html5 stuff instead11:30
npmmaybe with qtwebkit around it i might11:30
k-snpm: webkit-efl FTW :-)11:31
piercek-s: I don't think ophono is going to be used, from what I understand, samsung has their own, but I think connman will be a part of it11:31
wmaroneclosed phone stack = bad11:31
npmfor example, with qtwebkit, i can replace the abstract filesystem w/ something that decrupts files off disk. or replace Qnetworkaccessmgr with something that does some extra security frobs11:31
uhsf2011: Maemo + MobLin = MeeGo. 2012: MeeGo + LiMo = Tizen. 2013: Tizen + Joli OS = ?. 2014: ? + OpenPandora = ??. 2015: ?? + Bada = ???. Maybe somewhere around year 2015-2016 we will have a decent Free OS alternative.11:31
k-spierce: ok, guessed it11:31
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jonnoruhsf: takes some time to find the right name ;)11:32
piercenames are hard11:32
k-sblizzard: hey... wanna put firefox on tizen? :-)11:32
piercenpm: by the way, have you been following the craziness around google tv and drm?11:33
npmyes. they are fixing it11:33
blizzardk-s: heh, just curious about the platform11:34
k-spierce: how about the boot? is it systemd?11:34
piercenpm: not going too well for them, but they are trying11:34
npmin fact google bought a company to fix it11:34
blizzardk-s: see also: boot to gecko11:34
k-sblizzard: then I guess it's really webkit based... otherwise you'd say something else :-D11:34
k-sblizzard: saw it (as in web pages)... hard part is who is selling that?11:34
wmaroneI hope this doesn't turn in to a non-Google Android, where we have to fight the vendor and exploit security holes to "root our devices"11:35
blizzardk-s: selling what?11:35
blizzardk-s: the web as a platform?11:35
npmpierce: I can go down to my local electronics store and buy a google tv device for reasonable price. that's all that needs to be said.11:35
k-swmarone: then /quit and give up, really. don't dream11:35
piercek-s: from what I hear, they are looking at moving towards systemd, samsung wasn't using it11:35
k-sblizzard: devices with boot to gecko11:35
blizzardk-s: ahh, there's interest11:35
blizzardk-s: I'm not actually worried about if it's marketable11:36
blizzardk-s: people want it11:36
wmaronek-s: ah well, guess we're fucked in the end.11:36
k-swmarone: unfortunately :-(11:36
npm"Google will implement a DRM layer in the Chrome browser, Chrome This will likely not be open source, but will not affect the open source"11:37
wmarone"work for us for free! no you can't use your property as you wish!"11:37
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blizzardnpm: see also: mpeg4 support in chrome11:37
piercenpm: sure, but netflix, hulu etc?  The legal shuffles are crazy.  Microsoft owns the DRM for netflix, so even if netflix wanted, they can't just code up a new player app for the platform and be done with it.  There are layers and layers of contracts to go through.11:37
k-sblizzard: I'd just worry about it. The tech details should be simple compared to it. Otherwise it won't fly. You know the drill from the browser wars, it's already hard when all an user must do is to download an app... what to say about getting some OS installed on a netbook/ultrabook11:38
npmwell netflix has their own solution built on QtWebKit ( )11:40
npmand it runs even on PS3 due to Qt and uses phonon for DRM
npmso it would be a massive hole in platform to omit Qt and tell people to use HTML5 for stuff like this11:42
k-ssee it for another side11:43
k-swe tried to have gtk and it failed, qt and it failed11:43
k-snow give up :-P11:43
npmi don't think the failures should be attributed to the toolkit, but rather the organization11:44
k-srather to the devs? :-)11:44
npmno their management11:45
k-scome on... let's assume we do make things difficult11:45
npmi'm beginning to believe that this kind of stuff can't happen in a big slow company and needs a startup11:46
* Stskeeps stretches11:47
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npmsince it doesn't matter if you fail or succeed, you still have a job.11:47
npmwhereas you shift directions midstream as a startup and you're dead11:47
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k-snpm: doesn't make sense11:47
sidhdoes tizen has a chance to run on n900 ?11:47
jonnornpm: many startups do just that though11:47
k-sif you go in the wrong direction, you're as dead11:48
npmbut they do it small so when they fail nobody's wasted time11:48
k-saside from their time11:48
piercesidh: not anytime soon :-)  maybe it could be ported though if you put the effort in11:48
piercethe benchamrks I am really looking to see is how WAC apps stack up against the dalvik launcher with respect to power drain11:50
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sidhpierce: ok I see ... exactly as meego11:51
k-spierce: in which case? For JS intensive they may be slower and thus consume more cpu. Other than that, basically the same.11:51
k-spierce: but depends on the engine, some with JIT can be reasonably fast11:51
k-sbut if you consider both have JIT, JS should still be bit slower11:52
pierceboth dalvik and javascript can be jitted though11:52
k-sanyway that would not matter much for overall picture11:52
k-sif you keep timers and wakeups under control11:52
piercetrue true11:52
k-sexpensive operations are all in C/ASM/HW11:53
k-slike scrolling, painting, effects11:53
piercealso in the radio firmware11:53
npmisn't a JIT a stupid idea for a mobile platform compared to compiling down to .o ? you get to waste batteries every time JITing11:53
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k-snpm: do you know what JIT does?11:54
npmjust in time compilation11:54
jeremcaching is very effective here11:54
jeremandroid does that11:54
npmas opposed to proper compilation not at runtime11:54
k-snpm: yes, for instance. If you have in C, a qsort(). It would callback and all11:54
piercenpm: why .o?  ya, caching code at lower level is good11:54
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k-snpm: with a reasonable JIT you can remove the overhead of such function calls and size calculations. EVEN IN C11:55
k-snpm: even in .o, binaries11:55
k-sthus .o does not imply not JIT, etc11:55
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npmsame reason why GCJ versus compiled java.11:55
npmfaster, smaller better11:55
k-salso, IMO the biggest issue with native x virtual is the portability11:56
piercenpm: ya, that was the point of dalvik too, lower level caching so you don't need to compile as much at next run11:56
k-ssee... intel and samsung (arm)11:56
k-syou do one app, both want to run.11:56
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k-sthen what? ask the 3rd party provider to create N packages and all11:56
k-sthere HTML5 may be seen as an actual solution to a problem11:56
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npmand android batteries last how long?11:57
piercenpm: longer and longer every day11:57
jeremthe display still is the biggest issue overall11:58
jeremscreen off, and the mobile lasts a fucking eternity, even under some cpu load11:58
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jeremscreen on, and the battery is down in a matter of two houts11:59
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k-slast time I've checked it was like display > wireless/radio > i/o > cpu11:59
jeremthe fact that the screens get bigger, and sometimes ridiculously big (5"... wtf) doesn't help :)11:59
pierce<3 my evo11:59
npm"Google states JIT in 2.2 uses less cpu and battery"  -- compared to zero battery using GCC and proper compilation ahead of time12:00
pierceuntil I can glue it into my eye, I will use the bigger screens :-)12:00
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npmaka what I get using Qt12:00
piercenpm: lol, code compiled with gcc uses no battery?  that's a pretty fancy trick12:00
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npmi don't compile code on my handset12:01
npmi compile on my desktop it's plugged in12:01
npmand i compile once, not wasting batteries of every app user12:01
jeremI really doubt JITing has a noticeable effect on battery life at all12:01
piercenpm: your .o is just a less flexible JIT12:01
npmwhy would google advertize that the JIT improves battery life as a feature of 2.2??12:01
jeremespecially if you consider that much of JITing can be and is cached12:01
k-sjerem: me too, but should help with some JS cases... doubt they happen a lot in regular applications12:02
piercenpm: there is still a lot of translation done between the .o and execution on the metal12:02
k-sthese days most apps are just some business logic to get data from somewhere and show it12:02
jeremnpm, since the JIT produces better code that runs faster12:02
k-snpm: take some time to read about it. 3 people trying to tell you the same thing already ;-)12:03
jeremas far as I know one of the most advertised features of dalvik in 2.2 was better code generation12:03
npmi'd say Gcc -O3 is faster than any JIT:
k-sOMG... you go refer to ubuntuforums... :-D12:04
jeremnpm, depends12:04
wdouglask-s: We'll be working on a timeline for systemd12:04
jerembut really... why continue this pointless discussion?12:05
k-swdouglas: amazing! I've heard that meego was moving there... (or did), sammy people seems to like it as well. GOOD :-)12:05
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wdouglasYep yep, all hail systemd boot time improvments12:06
Stskeepsthe cgroups stuff also really matters12:07
k-swdouglas: not just time, but simpler and easier :-)12:07
wdouglasWell all of it really matters, but the boot time makes it a need12:07
wdouglasAnd very easy to convince people who want to make devices that are fast12:07
wdouglasThe fact it makes everything else nicer is added benefit for us devs ;)12:08
jerembut it's made by lennart12:08
k-soh yeah12:08
k-sjerem: ehehehehehehe12:08
jeremi cannot like it12:08
jeremhe's a pretty difficult person, or so I heard12:09
k-snah, he is nice12:09
jeremin fact colin told me that :)12:09
k-sat least with me, never had a single problem with him12:09
npm"why continue this poinless discussion" -- > true seems like these architectural blunders are just being thrown over the fence w/o discussion or analyzis\12:09
wdouglasYea he makes me write better patches =\12:10
jonnornpm: the discussion here is pointless because it is unlikely that the releveant parties are involved in it, or that they hear it at all12:10
piercenpm: I like your idea of an all c/c++ mobile platform.  How's that startup coming along?12:11
npmthey wont hear it anyways it appears otherwise these things would have been discussed first12:11
jeremnpm, it's YOU who is ignoring some of the more substantial arguments12:11
npmwhat startup?12:11
npmand i never said All C/C++12:11
npmi'm saying that Qt and QML are architecturally better than what tizen proposes12:12
pierceyour startup, you can't let such a brilliant idea go to waste :-D12:12
npmas opposed to WebOS mark II?12:12
pierceHTML5 is faster than QML12:12
jeremnpm, I agree with that, I thought you referred to the discussion about JIT vs precompilation12:12
npmit's easy to talk12:12
Stskeepspierce: not because i'm going to contest that directly.. [citation needed]?12:12
npmwhere's the data that made this decision12:12
jeremhere's your data12:13
jeremHTML5 is hype12:13
npmnow we're talking12:13
jeremit's the Cool Thing right now12:13
npmso when then next cool thing comes out jump to that?12:14
jeremif that isn't enough I don't know :)12:14
k-sone way to see it is devbase12:14
piercenpm: depends on how cool it is :-)12:14
k-speople-that-knows-html x people-that-knows-qml12:14
crazedpsycarch+systemd boots in about half the time as my android tablet :)12:14
k-sthere you get it ;-)12:14
npmlets see... using your house as a piggybank was the cool thing to do during the bush administration. however that doesn't mean it was smart12:14
jeremk-s, yes, I cringe when I have to think about loads of incompetent webdevs put out shit apps12:14
npmfollowing lemmings gives you a nice fall off a cliff12:14
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k-sthere are incompetent devs doing qt, efl, gtk and every single thing out there12:15
jeremof course12:15
npmso by the same token, people working on MacOSx in the old days (or NeXT) shoudl just have given up because windows was "hype"12:15
piercejerem: and what about all the 10 year old kids that can now make powerful mobile apps?  A broad dev base is a very important thing.12:15
jerembut I don't think you can deny that there's a bigger fraction of incompetent people in webdev12:16
jeremcompared to say, c++, developers12:16
npmcompanies like Intel are supposed to lead, not follow12:16
k-snpm: instead of arguing here12:16
k-snpm: create a comparison table12:16
k-snpm: and present it12:16
k-smake sure you state the number of devs, difficulty to write as well12:16
jeremalso, the fact that WAC is such an incomplete mess right now doesn't really promote clean software development12:17
k-sthen people will listen to you12:17
k-sotherwise it is my guess against your guess12:17
k-sjust guesses12:17
vmlemon_Hah. Wake me up when they actually have standardised APIs in HTMLx/ECMAScript for using the camera and microphone, the contact list and other PIM application databases, haptics and sensors, and other features that native APIs provide access to.12:17
npmwell the people working on MacOSx and IOS were "guessing" and they guessed right.12:17
k-sjerem: most software would need WAC extensions at all?12:17
npmif you don't take a stand, you end up nowhere12:17
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Nibbleso what's tizen all about?12:18
k-sjerem: ie: twitter or facebook clients. Mail clients... all web :-/12:18
jeremk-s, if you want to do anything nontrivial I'd say YES12:18
jonnorNibble: www.tizen.org12:18
k-sNibble: discussing everything for anything :-)12:18
npmvmlemon_: i agree.12:18
Nibblejonnor: that's how I found this channel12:18
k-sjerem: elaborate please. At least a common case for end-user apps12:19
NibbleI mean, why would I want to use Tizen instead of Android12:19
Nibbleor any other OS out there12:19
Nibblegenuinly interested, I know android has its downs12:19
vmlemon_(I haven't even mentioned luxuries such as NFC/RFID and Bluetooth).12:19
jonnorNibble: You don't at the moment, Tizen was just announced, nooone knows how it will look like or be. Check again in some months12:19
Nibblewell, Ill get back to you12:20
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jeremk-s, well, anything that needs to access data stored on the phone, for a start12:20
k-sjerem: which data? you can store stuff with html using sqlite12:20
jeremlike the phonebook12:20
k-sthere are apis for that12:21
k-sbut in the worst case you can do like webos did12:21
k-syou can even have the same api12:21
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k-sstick a js in there12:21
k-sbut AFAIR PhoneBook is in some existing standard12:21
k-slikely WAC12:21
jeremalso wasn't that websql standard abandoned?12:21
k-sas well as permission and access controls, so you can authorize listing your phonebook to some domains or apps12:22
jeremthe nice thing about standards is that there are so many to choose from12:22
k-safterall you don't want a website to phonebook.getAll() -> spam!12:22
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vmlemon_Heck, you probably couldn't build an Alarm Manager equivalent, or an application for capturing and parsing QR Code data in HTML, right now.12:22
npmwonder how proper  multithreaded apps are supposed to be done in JS??12:22
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Khertan_webchatproper <> js12:23
jeremwell, the webworker stuff?12:23
k-svmlemon_: what is an alarm manager?12:23
andyrossHah.  Knew this would be here.   So... "tie-zen or tee-zen?"12:23
k-svmlemon_: as for QR code, you can get data from camera and use html5 canvas access to read it... yeah, STUPID, but possible12:24
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npmnot really multithreading it's a hack12:24
jeremwhen I think about it, in fact everything in html+js land is even more messy than I thought at first12:24
jeremk-s, and how to actually decipher the QR code?12:24
npmDOM is not threadsafe for example12:24
k-snpm: you can't do "really multithreading" with qt, gtk or even efl as well12:24
jeremI don't think you can get decent performance with JS12:24
vmlemon_k-s: Alarm Manager was a third-party utility for Symbian Platform/S60 handsets for scheduling and manipulating multiple alarms.12:24
k-sso not much of an issue12:24
andyrossnpm: JS interpreters aren't multithreaded, so the library implementation seems like the small part of the problem.12:25
Khertan_webchat jerem this why you need dual core cpu12:25
vmlemon_(Sure, you could implement that in your native Clock application - but that's beside the point).12:25
jeremKhertan_webchat: lol12:25
npmright that's the problem. wrong language for the job12:25
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vmlemon_*that functionality12:25
k-sjerem: you can, believe me... and check most of non-app games, which kind of performance do they need?12:25
jeremjerem: android can do it on a lowly ARM11... but tizen needs a fast dualcore? now that would be quite ridiculous :)12:25
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andyrossBut JS was the language for the job when it was still called MeeGo. :)  Really the shift here is QML to DOM, not C++ to JS.12:26
jeremerr, I meant you, Khertan_webchat12:26
Khertan_webchatk-s: performance to override limitation of the framework12:26
jeremk-s: image processing isn't really a good fit for JS12:26
* andyross still wants to know the pronunciation of the first vowel.12:26
Khertan_webchatandroid have a pretty good vm12:26
vmlemon_I reckon that trapping events from other applications, in order to build utilities for doing such as submitting track playing information to Last.FM would be out of the picture, too.12:26
Khertan_webchatjerem: processing is't really a good fit for j12:27
npmQThread, QThreadStorage, QMutex, QMutexLocker, QSemaphore --> proper multithreading12:27
Khertan_webchatnot just image12:27
vmlemon_*doing stuff such as12:27
k-sjerem: I agree it's not a good fit. but still possible. Not used often. Not a blocker12:27
AsdfasdfPerformance isn't something i'd worry about.  V8 and spider monkey have proven that you can get the performance you need out of js12:27
jeremKhertan_webchat: heh12:27
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jeremAsdfasdf: on a fast PC CPU... but on ARM? no12:27
Asdfasdfand intel has shown off their multithreaded version of js12:27
k-snpm: then access a button from a thread-> bogus12:27
zuhGive me a webapp that actually spends more time running JS than loading resources, manipulating dom or rendering the page, and you get... superPI with JS?12:28
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Khertan_webchatAsdfasdf: yeah but doing work arround against framework limitation is time consuming12:28
andyrossFrankly I'd take V8's code generation ahead of Dalvik's, honestly.  Though I'm no expert.12:28
k-szuh: trying to guess that as well12:28
Khertan_webchatzuh: text pocessing and highlighting12:28
AsdfasdfKhertan_webchat: I can't argue against that12:29
k-sKhertan_webchat: and why would people do that in JS in a PHONE OR TABLET for god's sake?! ehehe12:29
andyrossAnd per k-s above: image processing is something that's probably a better fit for something like WebGL, which gives you a shader interface.  Exposed in t{ie|ee}zen?  No idea.12:29
vmlemon_A video or photo editor, anyone?12:29
npmk-s the UI doesn't need to be multithreaded, it can just run a select(). However the underlying app, if not trivial, will need it12:29
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jeremandyross: that really depends on what you need to do. I doubt a gpu is that useful for image analysis such as you need for QR code decoding12:30
k-sKhertan_webchat: will check12:30
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Khertan_webchatk-s: not for everyone maybe ... but 200000 download on Maemo seems to be a real use case12:30
jeremthere are many problems where you need the flexibility of CPUs, there's almost no way around12:30
Khertan_webchattry to the same things properly in javascrip12:30
k-sjerem: how many apps do image processing? Very few developers know how to do it anyway... they can find their way into JS as easily12:31
k-sKhertan_webchat: timed out here :-/12:31
npmvery few apps do speech processing, does that mean we should not work on it?12:31
vmlemon_(I'll scream if someone suggests uploading hundreds of MBs of video data to and from a Web service, just to apply filters or trim frames).12:31
Khertan_webchatsame as with qml ... i lost time doing work arround, and cpu and memory is consuming each time on harmattan just workarround qml limitation12:31
andyrossjerem: certainly true in the general case.  Not sure if I buy it for QR codes though.  That's all parallel (mip map to filter out detail, fit a bunch of rotations to determine orientation, then each bit becomes a vertex)12:32
Khertan_webchatk-s: timed out ? really ?12:32
Khertan_webchatk-s: no problem here, can you retry please ?12:32
jeremandyross: well, never tried it12:32
k-sKhertan_webchat: still nothing12:32
k-sone thing I believe people are misunderstanding is12:33
Khertan_webchatk-s: any error ? did you have a specific proxy ?12:33
k-sI don't believe it will REQUIRE dual-core... just be designed with that in mind, because the people doing it will release as such12:33
jeremk-s: re: image processing: most popular are probably apps that apply some effects to photos12:33
vmlemon_You could probably do a crappy workaround by calling a native process with a special URI, and passing around Base64-encoded JPEGs from the camera in data: URIs...12:33
jeremalso, of course, games12:33
k-sI don't believe it will BLOCK native apps... they even mentioned SDK. Just that HTML will be the recommended and standard way of doing things12:34
Khertan_webchatk-s: just hope that recommanded will not mean they will try everything to block other real standart ways12:34
pierceI think it would be funny if they charged developers more to sell native apps vs WAC apps :-)12:34
Khertan_webchatlike qwidget on harmattan12:34
npmbut what about infrastructure . for example gstreamer? or policy framework?12:35
wdouglaspierce: heh12:35
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Khertan_webchatpierce: ouch ... what a strange idea12:35
k-sif you get Android and iOS devices, although the webapps are not the Majority... MOST of apps USE webview inside them! Many do as their main view, just stuck a navigation, menu and then everything else is a webview. Even facebook's native app is like that12:35
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Khertan_webchatlook like an apple idea12:35
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* pierce is secretly steve jobs12:35
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Khertan_webchatk-s: this is that type of apps that didn't work without network12:36
Khertan_webchattake age to load on low coverage12:36
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Khertan_webchatand are unreliable12:36
k-sthey work here12:36
k-swithout net12:36
Stskeepspierce: and working on tizen? instant success!12:36
k-swith the cached data12:37
k-sie: I know it's a webview... my parents would never tell teh difference12:37
vmlemon_Heck, I've used a Qt WebKit view and dynamically generated data: URIs containing bits of HTML, just to create a scrolling marquee for a proof-of-concept application.12:37
Khertan_webchatk-s: yeah ... but cached data works only after you launch the apps12:37
Khertan_webchattry the facebook app on iphone in the subway12:37
k-svmlemon_: AFAIU you can apply these filters using the canvas element. Did you ever try to check the performance? Moreover, some photo effects are doable with pure-css12:38
Khertan_webchatyou can lost what you post if you lost network12:38
Khertan_webchatpretty sage12:38
vmlemon_(I didn't feel like writing a new ticker widget, so took the quick-and-dirty way out).12:38
npmi can also program turing machines but i wouldn't want to...12:38
k-sKhertan_webchat: ugly! even gmail web client saves that if you're offline :-/12:38
vmlemon_k-s: I haven't built something new with pure HTML/ES/CSS for a long time, so I don't know if things have changed for the best.12:39
Khertan_webchatk-s: even ? didn't works all time12:39
vmlemon_(I decided to move on to doing native stuff, a few years ago).12:39
Khertan_webchatanyway i didn't want to code in js12:39
k-svmlemon_: just to make it clear, I'm an EFL developer... we write things in C and all... but I see you people complaining without reasoning12:39
Khertan_webchatnor doing ui in html12:39
AsdfasdfStuff has gotten a lot better with html5 and es5/strict12:40
Khertan_webchatso this whole things is a nogo for me12:40
k-sI believe you're not the target app developer audience12:40
npmum, i'm complaining because this is a "worse is better" solution.
Khertan_webchati believe there aren't targetting devel12:41
k-sKhertan_webchat: they will need apps12:41
wdouglasKhertan_webchat: real devs don't work in js/html?12:41
AsdfasdfI've got to agree with Khertan_webchat12:41
k-sand for apps... they need app developers12:41
Khertan_webchatwdouglas: js/html developper didn't target device, they do webapp12:42
AsdfasdfThis may be a great system, but the way they have got about this, they aren't goign to have app developers12:42
k-sand unfortunately there are more web apps developers than all developers in Qt, Efl, Gtk, Haiku together12:42
Khertan_webchatso the app will not be their market12:42
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Asdfasdfk-s: true, but who's going to write specific stuff for a tizen app store?12:43
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PrerakHi. With tizen in picture will it be a replace meego12:43
Khertan_webchatand why webapp devel will lose time targetting this os ? and rewrite things for an other proprietary web api12:43
k-sAsdfasdf: do they need stuff specific for their appstore?12:43
Khertan_webchatif they want to sell device yes12:43
AsdfasdfYou can't do first class stuff without os specific apis12:43
vmlemon_Of course, Nokia probably won't accept Tizen applications in their store. Samsung might, if you're lucky, though.12:43
k-sI guess they would like to have any app12:43
k-snot just apps specific for their store12:44
Khertan_webchatbut who will care about tizen ?12:44
k-sseems like that given everyone trying to run android apps, that is, run apps from another store12:44
AsdfasdfIf developers aren't using tizen specific apis, then it is simply a browser only platform12:44
jeremKhertan_webchat: I also see this problem12:44
k-sAsdfasdf: agreed with you. and I guess lots of apps fall in this category12:45
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Khertan_webchateven if it s html5/js apps, you will have to use tizen api12:45
pierceAsdfasdf: the apis are WAC apis, which allow javascript to touch the operating system12:45
jeremif there's nothing that sets tizen apart (and no, good WAC support isn't it), people won't see any reason to prefer a tizen phone12:45
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Khertan_webchatwhy bother when you case deploy for iOS, and Droid ?12:45
Asdfasdfor chrome web store12:46
jeremstuff like angry birds sells phones12:46
Khertan_webchatWAC api is available on iPhone and Droid ?12:46
k-syou need to spin the wheel...12:46
piercemy understanding is that noone needs permission to sell tizen phones, as opposed to android which requires google's permission12:46
k-sif Apple and Google also sponsor web apps12:47
Khertan_webchatjerem: to be honest angrybird could be rewrite in html5/js12:47
Khertan_webchatk-s: but currently ?12:47
jeremKhertan_webchat: that already happened12:47
k-sgetting some momentum from their fields would help12:47
k-sthus pushing for webapps12:47
PrerakAll: Meego supported all the device that tizen will be supporting. So why Tizen?12:47
vmlemon_Maybe some enterprising person should build a handset with dedicated Angry Birds and FB buttons?12:47
PrerakIs it just a new wrapper with old content12:47
AsdfasdfKindle Fire will be the first real example of what happens to android without google involved12:47
jeremKhertan_webchat: but that's not the point. tizen would need a "killer app" specifically for tizen12:47
k-swill likely get one dev that targets iPhone or Android and say "Okay, within a day I can make my app run on this new phone... Why not?!"12:47
Khertan_webchatPrerak: to avoid "open governance"12:47
Khertan_webchatk-s: but wac isn't available on iPhone, nor Droid ... so need a rewrite12:48
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k-sKhertan_webchat: man, WAC is a thin layer12:48
piercePrerak: I think the idea of tizen is neat because there is nothing tizen specific about the platform.  Anyone can write WAC apps, and they will work.12:48
k-sKhertan_webchat: that very few apps will need12:48
Khertan_webchatand it s ll be not within a day, as you ll need to rewrite the ui part too to conform to the plateform12:48
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jeremI don't think acceptance of WAC apps on android or ios would be any good12:49
Khertan_webchatk-s: indeed it s useless to do an hello word12:49
jeremdoesn't look native, slower, etc.12:49
zuhKhertan_webchat: Isn't already done?-)12:50
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jeremI mean, cross-platform stuff NEVER works12:50
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jeremit always sucks12:50
Khertan_webchatzuh: probably i didn't follow the angrybirds development12:50
Khertan_webchat(and i didn't care)12:50
jeremQt is pretty good, but nonetheless it fails for cross-platform12:51
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Khertan_webchatjerem: did you believe that an other specific js api will be cross plateform ?12:53
Khertan_webchatit ll be worse12:53
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k-sjust opened it12:53
k-sfirst example is a pure html file12:54
jeremKhertan_webchat: no no, just saying that cross-platform frameworks and such are a myth12:54
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k-swhat is else? an icon and a spec in xml to provide some information12:54
k-sin a zip12:54
Khertan_webchatjerem: i agree12:54
* k-s fails to see how this would be not portable12:54
k-sthen they have apis for accel, camera, contacts, calendar12:54
jeremk-s: that's not the point12:54
k-sanswered some of the concerns raised before, no?12:54
Khertan_webchatk-s: even a c hello word is portable12:55
k-sKhertan_webchat: seems that if you do not need accelerometer, camera, contacts or calendar... WAC is just a simple XML with an icon + your existing code12:55
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k-sbtw, the spec is simple
Khertan_webchatk-s: so if you remove all specifics code it s just a webpage12:56
k-sand AFAIK this is already supported by Nokia phones and Opera at least12:56
k-sKhertan_webchat: which specific code?12:56
Khertan_webchataccelerometer, camera, contacts or calendar...12:56
jeremk-s: but this is not the native API on any mobile12:57
jeremlook & feel will always be different12:57
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k-sKhertan_webchat: how many apps use these things?! :-)12:57
jeremon tizen it MIGHT end up being the native API, but everywhere else it'll be foreign12:58
k-sjerem: sure, I agree with you there... they will look like your app, not like the device12:58
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k-swhich is reasonably bad12:58
jeremk-s: yes, and that's what I meant when I said that cross-platform NEVER works12:58
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k-sKhertan_webchat: I'm serious... few apps depends on these stuff. Accelerometer is available for other web phones as well. I recall seeing it in WebKit, so likely every webkit browser out there12:59
Khertan_webchatso it s mean go out ....12:59
k-scamera is similar...12:59
Khertan_webchatyeah but each time with a specific api12:59
Khertan_webchatat least qtmobility was a try to resolv this problem13:00
k-s this is the one for camera13:01
k-sthey have this "" looks sane13:01
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k-s are the specs13:02
billiob they can't have a proper coding style in their examples…13:02
k-sseems geolocation and others are the exact w3c13:02
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k-sbilliob: that's true ;-)13:03
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crazedpsycI am so sad that meegoers are just dumping Mx... :'( it is way better than webkit imho13:06
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srikanth_rstHello Guys any one tell me how to get regester to
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faenilis there any info about Qt on Tizen?13:09
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piercesrikanth_rst: I think they are waiting a week or so to enable user creation13:18
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faenilpierce: thanks...but that seems to be a custom build :)13:19
Stskeepsmakes sense, i think we had like a too huge userbase on because of first day13:19
Stskeepsfaenil: what (seems) to matter in tizen is the html5 + WAC support. how you get there seems to be less important13:19
Stskeeps(feel free to correct me)13:19
Stskeepsif you can build a good ui in Qt, GTK, whatever, and still do html5 + WAC as described properly, who truly cares? :P13:20
pierceya, I think the WAC stuff is just the launcher13:20
Stskeepsi personally think it's a good thing we seem to be getting rid of binary compliance :P13:20
pierceto be a proper minimalist, you should only need one app launcher on a system, but there is no reason why you can't have more :-)13:20
Stskeepsalien dalvik comes to mind..13:21
Stskeepsbut yeah13:21
pierceI agree with that, and I have been convinced that html5/js is a better idea than trying to make java work :-)13:21
Khertan_webchatStskeeps: why bother with ux so ... a minimalist core os with command line is enought13:22
faenilStskeeps: I did not get u13:22
pierceKhertan_webchat: keyboards are so last century13:23
k-sdo you know if the WAC backend will be released?13:23
k-sit would be good for enlightenment project13:23
StskeepsKhertan_webchat: i vote that we make the core render exclusively in ascii art13:23
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piercek-s: ya, should all be open source soon enough13:23
* k-s could use some web apps to do sms, mail, camera...13:23
Khertan_webchatStskeeps: i vote for too13:23
pierceStskeeps: that would be a pretty rad theme13:24
k-spierce: do you know details? Like if they use EET for data storage, or if they are a daemon accessible using dbus?13:24
Stskeepsfaenil: long story short, if you want to use qt for your product, go ahead, who cares? in the good way of 'who cares'13:24
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dorvanhi to all13:25
piercek-s: the data storage story is a sad one, it's a bunch of sqlite files13:25
faenilStskeeps: app market policy cares... :P13:25
* Khertan_webchat just made a test of a html/js source code editor .... take more time to render the same file on n900 with khteditor than ace on a core i5 with 4Gb of ram13:25
Stskeepsfaenil: it's just not guranteed to work on all Tizen devices, only html5 + wac is13:25
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faenilStskeeps: that's enough to slow down qt apps I think..13:27
Stskeepsfaenil: slow down?13:27
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dorvanwhat about plasma/qt4 in tizen?13:30
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Stskeepsmoo zehjotkah13:30
piercek-s: also optimization people seem to have killed dbus in earlier revisions of samsung's product, so I think some people over there don't like it13:30
zehjotkahstskeeps is fast... too fast for me... I'm half sleeping... ;)13:30
Stskeepsheh, dbus is usually first to go, .. or tracker13:31
Stskeepsi'm still looking forward to see the actual work13:31
faenilStskeeps: I mean who will use Qt for Tizen apps, if not all devices will support it...13:31
Stskeepsfaenil: it's quite powerful framework for designing user interfaces13:32
faenilStskeeps: I agree...but still...13:32
wdouglaspierce: My understanding is dbus is going to be pushed in harder now though13:32
zehjotkahwhat means "support it"?13:32
zehjotkahyou will always be able to install Qt13:32
Khertan_webchator not13:32
faenilwill you?13:33
zehjotkahyou will13:33
Khertan_webchatthey could put a security framework13:33
Stskeepsqt fits in tizen kind of like it does with android, i guess?13:33
Khertan_webchatwhich prevent it13:33
zehjotkahthe OS will be open from the core to the UI13:33
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zehjotkahwe were told... ;)13:33
faenilStskeeps: In fact, are there many qt apps for android?..13:33
Khertan_webchatthey can also not provide theme or component for qt13:33
Stskeepsfaenil: sure13:33
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Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: i do not believe them13:34
faenilStskeeps: do not agree on this ...but I'm not much informed about that13:34
Stskeepseither way13:34
zehjotkahI can't change that...13:34
Khertan_webchati see it as attempt to definitly kill limo13:34
Stskeepsall this is kind of vague until we see practice13:34
Khertan_webchatas they kill maemo, meego, moblin13:34
zehjotkahthere is no interest for In tel to kill LiMo13:34
zehjotkahas a CPU manufacturer they love open source13:34
Khertan_webchatthere is no visible interest13:34
zehjotkahbecause they want everyone to use their CPUs13:35
Khertan_webchatthere was not visible intereset to kill meego or maemo13:35
Khertan_webchatexept that this promote arm cpu13:35
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zehjotkahkhertan: does it makes sense to invest millions into a system just to kill it13:36
zehjotkahit doesn't13:36
zehjotkahi'm here at intel elements and there is so much work put into tizen13:36
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Khertan_webchatdoes't it make sense to push meego fr network to create their network while knowing that 6 days latter intel will kill MeeGo ?13:37
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zehjotkahthey hope to transfor meego communities into tizen communities13:37
Asdfasdf_zehjotkah: if I was at elements i'd be trying to start a revolution...13:37
Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: lol they can still hope13:37
zehjotkahit will happen13:38
Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: why we will believe them this time ?13:38
* Stskeeps hopes people will eventually see the positive sides of this move, too13:38
Stskeepsthere's bad sides, there's good sides13:38
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zehjotkahi can't make you believe anything13:38
Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: most of meego fr will not probably follow the move13:38
zehjotkahand i don't want to13:38
zehjotkahthen most of meego fr will spread fud13:38
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japerryit'll be nice to see tizen push forward, as long as some of the hardware integration can work13:39
Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: will spread fud ? no ... but move away to another plateform13:39
Khertan_webchatand use their time where it ll be usefull probably13:39
japerryI'm currently working with node to give some access to bluetooth and car functionality.. and then control it via HTML5 web apps13:39
japerryand sadly meego was so restrictive on the kernel and X driver side that it was pretty much impossible to build a system on it13:40
zehjotkahah okay, then i misunderstood13:40
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swishyjaperry: sweet13:40
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japerryso its pretty exciting to hear Tizen is where intel is going, we sorta figured out this on our own about a month ago after bashing our head on extending meego13:40
zehjotkahi thought you meant to stay with meego (which wouldn't make sense)13:40
japerryat least for in car infotainment13:41
Khertan_webchatzehjotkah: yeah ... getting more manufacturer is a good things, but not by killing open governance, nor killing the whole interesting part of the system13:43
Stskeeps.. where was the open governance actually killed? keep in mind that dawn seems to have listened to me and actually stating how things really are instead of how they're dreaming it to be13:44
Khertan_webchatStskeeps: now but they was hope for it there isn't any13:44
Stskeepslet's see, not enough data yet :P13:45
zehjotkahdon't mix open governance with "not caring and let the community do everything"13:45
Stskeepszehjotkah: open governance is really a difficult term to fully understand these days too :P13:45
Khertan_webchatunderstand and apply13:45
SazpaimonStskeeps, but what will happen to the little meego avatars?13:45
zehjotkahi think we can't expect an open governance project like debian but funded by a big company13:46
Sazpaimonwill they get a home?13:46
Stskeepsif you want a open governance project, base off tizen packages and do it your way..13:46
zehjotkahthey want to have power to drive the project, which is understandable13:46
Sazpaimonbut what about the avatars?13:46
StskeepsSazpaimon: they'll be put to work in the tizen work camps13:46
SazpaimonStskeeps, even your red penguin?13:47
StskeepsSazpaimon: i love the tentacle, etc ;013:47
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* Stskeeps thinks tizen has potential and an interesting approach i was myself pondering if would work for meego13:47
Khertan_webchatStskeeps: did you know any debian attemps to do mobile os ?13:48
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StskeepsKhertan_webchat: Mer? :P13:48
Khertan_webchatseriously ?13:48
StskeepsKhertan_webchat: i can tell you that it's a bad idea13:48
SazpaimonI can accept Tizen if I can stop pronouncing it like Titzen13:48
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Sazpaimonthus, I can never accept Tizen13:48
StskeepsSazpaimon: i'm pondering to just give up and call it project T13:48
Khertan_webchatStskeeps: any arguments ?13:48
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SazpaimonI want to be on the naming committe for these projects13:49
StskeepsKhertan_webchat: it's simple. just because a OS runs on a device it doesn't in any way make it mobile. mobile is about limited conditions, battery longeitivty and mobility13:49
SazpaimonI can pull stupid names out of my ass too!13:49
StskeepsKhertan_webchat: typical desktop distributions are horrid in that regard and need something close to a lobotomy to give the battery performance needed13:49
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Khertan_webchatStskeeps: yes this why i said mobile project ... not just recompilation ;)13:50
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Khertan_webchatStskeeps: but all bricks are here13:50
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StskeepsKhertan_webchat: it is, but it takes an actual architecture to do things right13:50
Stskeepsand well, mysqld as a dependancy just doesn't cut it..13:51
zehjotkahhere at elements Tizen is pronounced as Tie-Zen13:51
zehjotkahor Thai-Sen ;)13:52
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Asdfasdf_not Teasin'?13:53
Khertan_webchatTrouble In Ze Endless Nowhere13:53
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zehjotkahasdfasdf: nope :)13:54
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* Stskeeps wonders how people can ask if something runs on nokia n900 before 1) any code is out 2) any architecture diagram or 3) anything is released13:56
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Kcilorakany clue when we get to play with the source code?   =D13:56
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Stskeeps'coming weeks', supposedly13:57
Kcilorakare they abandoning QT?13:57
Asdfasdf_I think that was inevitable after nokia betrayed them :/13:57
StskeepsKcilorak: there is a focus on html5 and WAC, that's what matters13:58
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Stskeeps.. someone should really do a FAQ13:58
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Kcilorakbut in theory being open source means that the possibility of QT remains, HTML5 works but the more the merrier in my opinion13:59
Stskeepsi think this just gives a good app story, one primary runtime but if you want more, go ahead..13:59
k-sKcilorak: who will care about the Qt in it?13:59
k-sKcilorak: assuming the system apps are not in Qt14:00
k-sof course14:00
Kcilorakme   ;P14:00
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k-sKcilorak: but will you put efforts in maintaining it?14:00
k-sor you care as in you want it for your apps?14:00
zehjotkahjust asked about the governance at the panel discussion14:01
Kcilorakmost likely not on my own but if a project ensued to keep it alive I would certainly work on it.14:01
dorvannow qt return indipent from nokia, and the big kde communnity is founded on qt14:01
Asdfasdf_zehjotkah: what's the word?14:01
Stskeepszehjotkah: all your base are belong to us?14:01
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zehjotkahthe don't know yet, but there will be a technical steering group consisting of intel and samsung14:02
dorvani think it's good thing maintain qt in tizen14:02
zehjotkahand they will hear the community14:02
* Stskeeps personally hopes for a yocto style governance on lower levels14:02
KcilorakI am a big fan of QT, I think it would be nice to keep it around14:02
zehjotkahif you want to use Qt no one is stoppiung you14:03
zehjotkahtizen will be completely open source14:03
zehjotkahQt is open source14:03
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dorvanplasma active it's a good thing and framework structure can also support html5 and various scripting language to deploy apps and widgets14:03
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Stskeepszehjotkah: just remember that open source doesn't mean not locked down :P14:03
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Kcilorakthus, all is beautiful in the open source world   :)14:04
zehjotkahStskeeps: don't reming me of aegis, please. I just managed to not get nightmares anymore... ;)14:04
zehjotkahKcilorak: kindof... yeah. ;)14:04
Stskeepszehjotkah: oh, i wasn't referring to the demon, i meant in terms of picking up where to get your apps14:04
Stskeepseither way. crazy day. time for some sleep14:05
zehjotkahthe preferred way is the AppUp store14:05
dorvanStskeep: yes but the use of qt is not a limitation14:05
zehjotkahnot sure if Qt will be excluded from the AppUp store14:05
zehjotkahbut I'm sure that it won't be locked out from Tizen14:06
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Khertan_webchatlet see when it ll be available14:06
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Khertan_webchatin six months14:07
zehjotkahokay, I'm heading to the next session now... later!14:08
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jbostizen, is it like citizen or like tie-in or like tiz'n14:21
Asdfasdf_People from app up are saying tie-zen14:22
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jbosuh, this sounds somehow wrong in german context... :)14:28
jboswell thanks :)14:29
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xtcvaporSo are we going to be able to put Tizen on current Android devices easily?18:36
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crazedpsycxtcvapor: Well, you can't even download it right now, afaik.. but once you can, you have to root your android device, and then it all depends on the hardware18:39
fabrice1that's very unlikely to run "as-is" on current android devices, since they all have proprietary blobs18:41
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rastersame with n900/n950/n918:43
xtcvaporI mean, there's some good devs that build android from source to run on phones that didn't run it... iphone for example18:43
rasterno way anyone BUT the vendor of that device could provide a working os for that device18:43
rasterxtcvapor: they always miss features18:44
rastereg no opengl18:44
rasteror they violate copyright/licenses to make it work18:44
xtcvaporBut it's possible to get tizen running on an android device?18:45
rasterfrom memory - for example, on tyhe n900 battery charging susbsytem is closed (nokia proprietary), the gpu is as well. as are the dsp codecs so "video decode accel" couldnt be provided18:46
rasterxtcvapor: as i said... always miss features18:46
rastereg no telephony18:46
rasterno gpu18:46
rasterno XXX18:46
araujoxtcvapor, the only thing we have about tizen are just announcements, so we will need to wait and see :)18:48
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fabrice1araujo: or contribute to a really open project like Boot 2 Gecko18:53
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araujofabrice1, that option has always been available ...19:30
araujoand will be too ...19:31
WaycloudOn what kernel of Linux will work Tizen? 3.0?19:31
Sazpaimon9.0, when it comes out19:32
Sazpaimonbecause linux kernel 17.6 will be out by then19:32
WaycloudI expect a GMA 500 Support like Jolicloud19:33
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alexgodhello everyone21:28
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errorstudenthii :)22:23
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slonopotamusif you ever patch gtk/qt, i 'm more than sure tizen will fail :)22:39
rasterhow do you even know if it uses gtk or qt?22:40
slonopotamusthat's not required by my statement22:40
rasterit is logically required as in order to bother patching you'd be using them22:40
rasterotherwise patching them is utterly pointless and has nothing to do with tizen22:41
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slonopotamuswell, if tizen doesn't use any of them, then "if" just doesn't happen22:42
slonopotamusoh, btw, while we're in merging stage again, let tizen merge Mozilla OS efforts _now_ and not after two years of development? :)22:42
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cedricslonopotamus: do you really thing that's their is nothing except gtk and qt ?22:44
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slonopotamuscedric: my sentence doesn't imply that22:46
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Stskeepsmorn iekku22:49
iekkuwhat's up in here?22:49
slonopotamusiekku: nothing yet22:50
Stskeepsit is morning and people are discussing toolkit merits..22:50
iekkuoh, ok22:50
zuhAt least it's not "why web UI's suck" anymore...22:51
Stskeepsor rpm vs deb22:51
iekkuok, so the step 1 is done?22:51
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Paimenwell I'm kind of waiting deb vs. rpm to start over again22:52
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slonopotamusone more distro switch and i'll get a scollbar on IRC channels list22:52
iekkuPaimen, i think it will happen, new people coming and having some opionions22:52
iekkuslonopotamus, :D22:53
PaimenI think it started 3 or 4 times yesterday22:53
rasterStskeeps: JAR!!!!!!22:56
alexgodI want to know what kind of system platform could be the HTML5 based or supported. Lile ChromeOS?22:57
alexgodLike ChromeOS?22:58
slonopotamusalexgod: Firefox-based would be funnier :)22:58
Stskeepsi have my money on the reference being eflwebkit?22:58
slonopotamusholy crap, children under 13 aren't allowed to register on :(22:59
Stskeepsnormal in the US23:00
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iekkuis the registeration open now?23:00
slonopotamusthough it didn't ask my age23:01
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slonopotamuserr... or that is a "forgot password" page :/ not clear23:02
iekkuslonopotamus, that's not a registration page :D23:02
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slonopotamuswhen logging in via openid i get "Only site administrators can create new user accounts."23:03
DawnFosteruser registration will be open as soon as we fix the SSO bug23:03
DawnFosterprobably next week23:03
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alexgodSometimes, I have been playing with the chromeless tech. I think the commonJS style with it very interesting , although I love webkit or chrome more.23:05
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rasterStskeeps: making bets eh?23:07
vtorriraster: msi is better than jar :p23:08
slonopotamus nice :)23:08
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cedricvtorri: that doesn't surprise me comming from you :)23:10
srikanth_rstslonopotamus:hope Tizen drink is good for open community23:10
iekkusrikanth_rst, +123:10
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rastervtorri:  bah! CAB files!23:13
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cedricthat would have helped Nokia if they did choose cab or msi :)23:32
vtorriand one month later they would have moved to winphone 7 :)23:32
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mikl0sWhat are the costs related to using Tzien on say a PMP device?23:34
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cedricnot 42 ?23:36
rasternot today23:37
rastermaybe tomorrow23:37
Jonathan_LTalking about anything in particular?23:38
zuhIf you do 6 devices, it would be 4223:38
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Jonathan_LOut of curiosity, can we expect Tizen to work on Nokia N9?23:38
cedriczuh: that's the answer then !23:39
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rasterJonathan_L: totally not official here. think about it.23:40
rasternokia makes the n923:40
rasternokia is not invovled in tizen. they are totally committed to wp7 - why would they bother doing any work on it?23:40
rasternokia is the ONLY one who has any chance of doing a legal port as only they as the OEM have licenses for thigns like opengl libs23:41
Jonathan_LSure, sure, but still - can a Tizen ROM be made to work on the N9? A bit like how it's done with Cyanogenmod on Androids23:41
rasteror have drivers for other closed binary blob subsystems23:41
rasterso why would any company involved in tizen go to immense effort to support the device of someone who already said "bye bye linux/meego etc." ?23:42
rasterJonathan_L:  thats up to users to figure out23:42
rasteras such u dont even know what the os looks like inside yet, so maybe hold your horses a bit?23:42
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zuhThe horses were let out to run free by the less-than-concrete announcements and missing code, no use to try to hold them back now :)23:44
Jockelaraujo: Hi :-)23:44
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araujohello Jockel23:45
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rasterzuh: then thats all the info you have for now. wait for more :)23:46
JockelI am searching for netbook-UIs for ARM-linux and how to port it into different distros....23:46
Jockelcan anybody help?23:46
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Jockelwhich "netbook-UI's" exist and which are under active development?23:47
araujoTizen is Zen23:47
rasterJockel: how is a netbok ui different from .. a general laptop ui?23:47
araujoSo don't rush things up little grasshoppers23:47
zuhraster: And what do people do when waiting? Speculate!23:47
rasterit has all the same constraints23:47
Jockelnot much...23:47
rasterzuh: yeah. i know. :(23:47
rasterJockel: then... why do u need a specific netbook ui for arm?23:48
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rasterany old desktop that u like the look/feel etc. of will do23:48
Jockelnetbooks have smaller screen resolutions and less CPU- and GPU power23:48
rastercompile and use23:48
rasternetbooks have the same sized screens ad the smaller laptops23:48
rasterthey are all in the 10" range these days23:48
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rasterand cpu and gpu power... thats just a function of cost and time23:49
* swishy uses a netbook as his primary box at home23:49
rasterso choose a desktop that uses less cpugpu/ram :)23:49
rasterthe ONLy thing that may be specific is if u want compositing and u have an ARM soC u will ONLy have opengl-es223:49
Jockelwhat you can recommend?23:49
rasterthat is assuming u have drivers from your OEM or fromt he gpu vendor23:49
rasterand a license for them23:49
rasterand that then limits which desktop compositors will work23:50
Jockelubuntu netbook distos comes with ugly UI's23:50
rasteru need one that does opengl-es2/egl23:50
Jockel"Flow" was the name23:50
Jockelit was so bad....23:50
rasterwell i just use E23:50
Jockeli am running nvidea tegra25023:50
rasteron everything from puny 200mhz arm's with no gpu at all all the way up to my multi-screen quad core 3.2ghz 8gb ram nvidia desktop beastie23:51
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rasterlast time i had a tegra2 on my desk, e17 worked out of the box - compositing too.23:51
Jockelon other notebooks I am running XFCE for years and now I tested LXDE.... they are OK.... but they are for NOTEBOOKS23:53
rasteras i said23:53
rasterhow is it different?23:53
Jockeli want to run something like android honeycomb devices or Meego netbooks23:53
rasteru have a keyboard, a mouse (touchpad) a screen of the same size as notebooks23:53
Jockelthere are differences...23:53
Jockelthe UI differs..23:53
rasterand why does it have to differ?23:54
Jockelu have bigger areas...23:54
Jockeleasy controll23:54
rasterthats justa  matter of scaling23:54
rastermake your fonts bigger23:54
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rasterand adjust theme of toolkit23:54
Jockelno cpmlex things like normal windowmanagers23:54
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swishyJockel I have no issues23:54
rasterpeople dont seem to care23:54
rasterwhy do u think netboosk almost all run widnows now?23:54
swishyeven doing dev in vs on win7 for example23:54
rasterusers see them ans small cheap notebooks23:54
rasterthey want their normal windowing ui23:55
Jockeli do not whant the "normal" UI ;)23:55
Jockelif so, I would choose a win-UI23:55
rasterall uw ant is a wm that alwasy maximizes windows23:55
rasterthats it23:55
swishylike e1723:55
JockelI never heard about e17...23:56
rasteru can write a module for e17 that hooks into the wm policy to do that23:56
rasterthere is even a whole module just for that23:56
rasterthere is a touchscreen profile offered by default23:56
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rasterjust select it on first launch23:56
rastertheres a whole gfx widget set/t0oolkit for doing fancy ui's with finger scrolling and controls23:57
rasterif u have a touchscreen23:57
rasterworks alslo from a mouse23:57
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Jockelnice niece nice... that is what I am searching for23:57
rasterfor peoples screenshots23:57
Jockelis there any alternative to e17?23:58
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rasterdon't ask me23:58
rasteri'm biased23:58
Jockeland e17 works on any linux-distro?23:58
rastere17 is my baby and its what samsung works on and uses for mobile ui's23:58
JockelMeeGo can run e17?23:59
Jockelokay ;)23:59
Jockelgood, to know23:59
rasterget src23:59
rasterits all open23:59
--- Log closed Thu Sep 29 00:00:23 2011

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